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  • FIRST POST
    • tightasafish
    • By tightasafish 9th Jan 18, 10:53 AM
    • 22Posts
    • 9Thanks
    tightasafish
    Recovery of training costs
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 10:53 AM
    Recovery of training costs 9th Jan 18 at 10:53 AM
    Hi all,
    I started a new job late November 2017 (I am going to try to be a little vague about specifics as I dont want to identify the employer) and underwent some intensive training throughout December. Then in early January 2018 I went on a shadow shift which traumatised me somewhat and brought home to me that this was not the job for me.
    I verbally told my new employer that I could not carry on and hoped that that would be the end of it. However they have verbally expressed their intention to recover training costs from me to the tune of around £2k. To be fair to them, this is well spelt out in the contract that I signed, but I said that I was trying to make a clean break and I could easily have gone on sick leave and strung the whole thing out (I have since got a sick note from my GP for 'reactive debility').
    They are now pestering me to send them an official letter of notice, and I think they are only doing this so that they can proceed with their claim against me.
    My dilemma is 1. should I send them a copy of my sicknote? and 2. should I send them formal notice?
Page 1
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 9th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
    • 4,829 Posts
    • 6,397 Thanks
    spadoosh
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
    If you intend on leaving their employment then im not sure why you would give in the sick note?

    If you intend to leave its normally worth handing in your formal notice as that is usually the start of any notice periods needed.

    If you had just spent £2000 on an employee for them to quickly decide the job isnt for them what would you think is the best course of action? Would you right it off?

    So you want to stiff them out of £2k worth of training and then take them for a ride paying SSP to drag it out. Not cool is it?
    Don't be angry!
    • tightasafish
    • By tightasafish 9th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    tightasafish
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    I am not sure what kind of person would take time out of their day to post such an unsympathetic and harsh reply. I am not out to 'stiff' anyone or 'take them for a ride'. The reaction I had was totally unexpected and caused me a great deal of distress. All I want to do is put the whole episode behind me and move on. Thanks for nothing.
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 9th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    • 1,491 Posts
    • 2,990 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    Hi all,
    I started a new job late November 2017 (I am going to try to be a little vague about specifics as I dont want to identify the employer) and underwent some intensive training throughout December. Then in early January 2018 I went on a shadow shift which traumatised me somewhat and brought home to me that this was not the job for me.
    I verbally told my new employer that I could not carry on and hoped that that would be the end of it. However they have verbally expressed their intention to recover training costs from me to the tune of around £2k. To be fair to them, this is well spelt out in the contract that I signed, but I said that I was trying to make a clean break and I could easily have gone on sick leave and strung the whole thing out (I have since got a sick note from my GP for 'reactive debility').
    They are now pestering me to send them an official letter of notice, and I think they are only doing this so that they can proceed with their claim against me.
    My dilemma is 1. should I send them a copy of my sicknote? and 2. should I send them formal notice?
    Originally posted by tightasafish
    So you signed the Contract knowing that the clause about repaying training costs was in it. You therefore don't appear to have any chance of getting away with not paying them the £2k.

    You can either formally resign or wait for them to sack you, it's up to you.
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 9th Jan 18, 11:33 AM
    • 4,829 Posts
    • 6,397 Thanks
    spadoosh
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:33 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:33 AM
    I am not sure what kind of person would take time out of their day to post such an unsympathetic and harsh reply. I am not out to 'stiff' anyone or 'take them for a ride'. The reaction I had was totally unexpected and caused me a great deal of distress. All I want to do is put the whole episode behind me and move on. Thanks for nothing.
    Originally posted by tightasafish
    Apparently this type of person.

    Out of curiosity what did you want the replies to be?
    Don't be angry!
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 9th Jan 18, 11:37 AM
    • 4,392 Posts
    • 4,625 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:37 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:37 AM
    You signed a contract which stated that any training costs could be recovered if you left within a set time frame. You have decided, for whatever reason, that you are going to leave within that time frame. I'm not clear why you think you shouldn't have to repay the costs.
    Having a certificate from your doctor to show that you are ill doesn't change the basic facts.
    • Derwent
    • By Derwent 9th Jan 18, 4:58 PM
    • 551 Posts
    • 723 Thanks
    Derwent
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:58 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 4:58 PM
    It depends on whether the training given was delivered "in house" or was by an external company that the employer had to pay for. Most lawyers advise companies against trying to claw back "in house" training costs as they are extremely difficult to quantify and there is an argument that some of the training is mandatory anyway (e.g. Health and Safety etc). If your employer pursues the claim then you are within your rights to ask them to justify the costs by way of invoices from external providers.
    • aife
    • By aife 9th Jan 18, 7:29 PM
    • 151 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    aife
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:29 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:29 PM
    Is there any possibility of asking to be assigned to a different role/area within the same organisation ?
    Do you think you were unlucky in finding yourself in a fairly extreme situation or was what traumatised you the kind of thing you would be expected to deal with on a daily basis ? Has anyone discussed this with you ?
    Has anyone discussed coping mechanisms ?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jan 18, 7:41 PM
    • 4,367 Posts
    • 7,296 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:41 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:41 PM
    Assuming the training costs are justified, then sick or not you owe the money. They have six years (assuming your are in England or Wales) to pursue this to the full extent of the law. Being sick doesn't change that. If the costs are justified, you can string it out as long as you want - they'll still chase you for it and in the process may damage your credit rating and opportunities for credit or mortgages for a long time to come.

    And they can so make you also jump through hoops for SSP. They can make your life hell. And then some. And we haven't even got to your lousy references.

    Playing this isn't an option. You will lose. So do you have a better idea, because your current one isn't likely to pan out...?
    • t0rt0ise
    • By t0rt0ise 9th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    • 2,963 Posts
    • 1,841 Thanks
    t0rt0ise
    Better to get used to whatever it is that traumatised you. I've known nurses that didn't like taking blood but in a few weeks had got used to it. Also dealing with the dead is traumatic first time but you get used to it. Why not ask for their help to get through whatever it is that you don't like. You will most likely soon find it's all fine.
    • es5595
    • By es5595 9th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    es5595
    I think we need some more specifics before we can really judge. Is the training transferable? Where you paid a full salary or a training salary? What are the potential consequences of you under-performing? I imagine the company's costs alone would exceed what they could reasonably recoup.

    I had a friend who was a depot driver for a train company, in their contract they had to give six months notice of leaving as well as reimburse a month's salary if they left within the first twelve months. Whilst they were there, moral dropped through the floor, the work load increased by 150%, and the staffing level dropped by 30%. Several people left, my friend included, and whilst a lot of hoo-hawing and posturing was made about not giving sufficient notice and the reimbursement, noone was actually pursued for it.

    If you can see no way of returning, I'd suggest you speak verbally to them again, explaining you were either inadequately trained or incorrectly recruited as this role is utterly unsuitable for you and you have no intention of staying with them long term. You are however prepared to stay as long as the training contract stipulates, but are currently signed off sick with a doctors note. Alternatively, you are also prepared to resign with immediate effect, in exchange for a waiver from the training fees.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jan 18, 8:19 PM
    • 4,367 Posts
    • 7,296 Thanks
    sangie595
    I think we need some more specifics before we can really judge. Is the training transferable? Where you paid a full salary or a training salary? What are the potential consequences of you under-performing? I imagine the company's costs alone would exceed what they could reasonably recoup.

    I had a friend who was a depot driver for a train company, in their contract they had to give six months notice of leaving as well as reimburse a month's salary if they left within the first twelve months. Whilst they were there, moral dropped through the floor, the work load increased by 150%, and the staffing level dropped by 30%. Several people left, my friend included, and whilst a lot of hoo-hawing and posturing was made about not giving sufficient notice and the reimbursement, noone was actually pursued for it.

    If you can see no way of returning, I'd suggest you speak verbally to them again, explaining you were either inadequately trained or incorrectly recruited as this role is utterly unsuitable for you and you have no intention of staying with them long term. You are however prepared to stay as long as the training contract stipulates, but are currently signed off sick with a doctors note. Alternatively, you are also prepared to resign with immediate effect, in exchange for a waiver from the training fees.
    Originally posted by es5595
    A single incident from another employer is irrelevant. Inadequate training or incorrect recruitment, whatever they mean, are irrelevant. The money is owed if it is owed. Staying off sick - and being totally unable to start other employment whilst getting a pittance in SSP - is hardly an answer. To say nothing of references.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 9th Jan 18, 8:29 PM
    • 2,061 Posts
    • 1,937 Thanks
    steampowered
    How long does the repayment clause last for?

    You have to give a formal notice if you want to end your employment. Your employment would then end after your notice period (or earlier, if the employer agrees to let you go earlier).

    You can't take another job while you are signed off sick. SSP isn't very much.

    Most employers would deduct the training costs from your final pay packet, if they have the opportunity.
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 9th Jan 18, 11:31 PM
    • 1,358 Posts
    • 1,301 Thanks
    xapprenticex
    All I want to do is put the whole episode behind me and move on.
    Originally posted by tightasafish
    hand in notice and pay back what you owe as per contract you agreed to and signed.
    • aife
    • By aife 9th Jan 18, 11:55 PM
    • 151 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    aife
    Better to get used to whatever it is that traumatised you. I've known nurses that didn't like taking blood but in a few weeks had got used to it. Also dealing with the dead is traumatic first time but you get used to it. Why not ask for their help to get through whatever it is that you don't like. You will most likely soon find it's all fine.
    Originally posted by t0rt0ise
    That can certainly be true in some cases , but there are also times when someone just turns out to be a bad fit.
    We simply don't have enough information to know which it is.
    Morally , as far as repaying the money goes I can see both sides to some extent. I know people will say 'they signed the contract' but fact is most of us NEED to work and simply have to accept whatever conditions are imposed
    On the other hand it's obviously tough for an organisation if people apply for jobs and are given training and then leave the minute they don't like something.
    We don't know if they really pushed for the job without really thinking it through , or if they were given bad information/ poorly prepared , how bad (and how predictable or otherwise) their experience was.
    The OP also hasn't said whether they're demanding immediate payment or offering a reasonable timescale .
    • aife
    • By aife 10th Jan 18, 12:04 AM
    • 151 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    aife

    I had a friend who was a depot driver for a train company, in their contract they had to give six months notice of leaving as well as reimburse a month's salary if they left within the first twelve months. Whilst they were there, moral dropped through the floor, the work load increased by 150%, and the staffing level dropped by 30%. Several people left, my friend included, and whilst a lot of hoo-hawing and posturing was made about not giving sufficient notice and the reimbursement, noone was actually pursued for it.

    . Alternatively, you are also prepared to resign with immediate effect, in exchange for a waiver from the training fees.
    Originally posted by es5595

    - that sounds closer to indentured slavery than employment. And difficult to enforce / liable to backfire.

    I think your suggestion at the end may well be the best option for both sides . Might be better if OP could get someone to support them with this. I'm assuming they're not in a union since they haven't mentioned it. Maybe CAB ?
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 10th Jan 18, 12:37 AM
    • 1,112 Posts
    • 764 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Hi all,
    I started a new job late November 2017 (I am going to try to be a little vague about specifics as I dont want to identify the employer) and underwent some intensive training throughout December. Then in early January 2018 I went on a shadow shift which traumatised me somewhat and brought home to me that this was not the job for me.
    I verbally told my new employer that I could not carry on and hoped that that would be the end of it. However they have verbally expressed their intention to recover training costs from me to the tune of around £2k. To be fair to them, this is well spelt out in the contract that I signed, but I said that I was trying to make a clean break and I could easily have gone on sick leave and strung the whole thing out (I have since got a sick note from my GP for 'reactive debility').
    They are now pestering me to send them an official letter of notice, and I think they are only doing this so that they can proceed with their claim against me.
    My dilemma is 1. should I send them a copy of my sicknote? and 2. should I send them formal notice?
    Originally posted by tightasafish

    Are you an accountant then? I can't imagine a more "traumatising" job.


    (Watched "And now for something completely different" the other night.)
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 10th Jan 18, 5:00 PM
    • 18,899 Posts
    • 19,238 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    What did you actually sign? There is a world of difference between signing a contract to repay training costs where the training is provided by an outside company and the costs are totally transparent, and signing a piece of paper that overtly gives an employer the right to recover any amount of costs for unspecified and ill-determined 'training'.
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    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 11th Jan 18, 6:22 AM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    Assuming the training costs are justified, then sick or not you owe the money. They have six years (assuming your are in England or Wales) to pursue this to the full extent of the law. Being sick doesn't change that. If the costs are justified, you can string it out as long as you want - they'll still chase you for it and in the process may damage your credit rating and opportunities for credit or mortgages for a long time to come.

    And they can so make you also jump through hoops for SSP. They can make your life hell. And then some. And we haven't even got to your lousy references.

    Playing this isn't an option. You will lose. So do you have a better idea, because your current one isn't likely to pan out...?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Even if the OP is sick, surely the employer can terminate the employment and pay SSP for the notice period minus three days?
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 11th Jan 18, 6:28 AM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    On the facts given in the OP, I would have thought that as the OP cannot claim unfair dismissal the employer can just terminate the employment.
    .
    Even if the OP is sick, I don't see why the employer wouldn't just let him go??
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