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    • Lightening_star
    • By Lightening_star 8th Jan 18, 11:47 AM
    • 10Posts
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    Lightening_star
    Is this benifit fraud?
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:47 AM
    Is this benifit fraud? 8th Jan 18 at 11:47 AM
    Someone I know is being asked by their jobcentre to show bank statements and payslips, she claims Universal credit, but what she did was tell the jobcentre she works sometimes when infact she wasn't, she only said she worked so she did not have to come in to the jobcentre, none the less she has no extra earnings nor any bank accounts and was not getting paid from anywhere,

    I assumed universal credit is based on your national insurance earnings? where they can find out your earnings through national insurance?

    none the less what is the likely outcome here. Remember she only told them she worked few shifts on a part time zero hour contract, when infact she did not, but the DWP is asking for statements and pay slips, if she tells them she has no earnings apart from Universal Credit , would she be ok? I thought fraud is where you do not declare earnings?
    Last edited by Lightening_star; 08-01-2018 at 12:05 PM.
Page 1
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 8th Jan 18, 11:52 AM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:52 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:52 AM
    I wouldn't call it benefit fraud (she'd actually be receiving less money than she was entitled to if she claimed she had income coming in), but if she lied about working in order to avoid jobseeking activities she could be sanctioned.
    • Lightening_star
    • By Lightening_star 8th Jan 18, 12:07 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    Lightening_star
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:07 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 12:07 PM
    How can DWP prove she lied? what if she tells them she simply forgot to sign time sheet at work and did not get paid?

    She was/is still looking for work but never had any earnings, so if tells the jobcentre the truth what is the outcome you think?

    What kind of sanction is likely? she's never been sanctioned before and has genuinely worked recently so that should favour her? DWP would need proof she never went into work right?
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Jan 18, 1:24 PM
    • 4,419 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:24 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:24 PM
    How can DWP prove she lied? what if she tells them she simply forgot to sign time sheet at work and did not get paid?

    She was/is still looking for work but never had any earnings, so if tells the jobcentre the truth what is the outcome you think?

    What kind of sanction is likely? she's never been sanctioned before and has genuinely worked recently so that should favour her? DWP would need proof she never went into work right?
    Originally posted by Lightening_star
    DWP can ask the the details of her employer and contact them for actual working hours if they believe the claimant is being less than honest. A person claiming to be working but providing no detail of income could be sanctioned anyway. If they discover that she hasn't been working, merely claiming to be to avoid the need to comply with jobsearch activities etc, she is certainly laying herself open to sanction.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 8th Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    • 683 Posts
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    NineDeuce
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    "Someone I know"........
    • Lightening_star
    • By Lightening_star 8th Jan 18, 2:06 PM
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    Lightening_star
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:06 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:06 PM
    Shouldn't DWP know that any earnings always show up because of national insurance? so why the need to see evidence of payslips, bank statements etc?

    What kind of sanction is likely? can't she just say she never got paid because she did not sign a time sheet?
    • paragon909
    • By paragon909 8th Jan 18, 2:30 PM
    • 1,266 Posts
    • 1,269 Thanks
    paragon909
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:30 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:30 PM
    Shouldn't DWP know that any earnings always show up because of national insurance? so why the need to see evidence of payslips, bank statements etc?

    What kind of sanction is likely? can't she just say she never got paid because she did not sign a time sheet?
    Originally posted by Lightening_star
    Clearly you have no idea how DWP or UC works... How the system is designed to allow people to work by getting a reduced amount of money to compensate any losses with employment. Compared to old style JSA, that's the concept anyway.

    Second type of posts like this in 24 hours, Becoming a joke now. This forum isn't for this type of advice!
    • singhini
    • By singhini 8th Jan 18, 2:49 PM
    • 283 Posts
    • 173 Thanks
    singhini
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:49 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 2:49 PM
    Shouldn't DWP know that any earnings always show up because of national insurance? so why the need to see evidence of payslips, bank statements etc?

    What kind of sanction is likely? can't she just say she never got paid because she did not sign a time sheet?
    Originally posted by Lightening_star
    Maybe that's why they want to see the wage slips. When they are checking with HMRC and the DWP-NI records nothing is showing up, hence they want statements to investigate further.
    • paragon909
    • By paragon909 8th Jan 18, 3:02 PM
    • 1,266 Posts
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    paragon909
    • #9
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:02 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:02 PM
    To be honest, I have a feeling the OP is actually talking about themselves, When one uses "Someone I know" is usually a forum term for asking these types of questions without the forum turning against them....

    What does it matter to the OP what the sanction is likely to be if it isn't their claim or problem!
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Jan 18, 5:38 PM
    • 4,419 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    Shouldn't DWP know that any earnings always show up because of national insurance? so why the need to see evidence of payslips, bank statements etc?

    What kind of sanction is likely? can't she just say she never got paid because she did not sign a time sheet?
    Originally posted by Lightening_star
    On low earnings there won't necessarily be any NI or tax. DWP aren't interested in how much tax or NI is paid. They need to know the actual earnings. That's why payslips are needed.
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 8th Jan 18, 7:45 PM
    • 908 Posts
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    tomtom256
    As UC use RTI, they will know if any work has been done, so yes they will know she lied.

    Get ahead of the game and save problems later by being upfront about the lie. If sanctioned, they only have themselves to blame.
    • Lightening_star
    • By Lightening_star 9th Jan 18, 1:59 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Lightening_star
    So DWP do not cut any earnings that are below a certain amount? say £20-30 per week? can my friend simply say she did few days a week and that is why they never cut earnings?

    P.S it is genuinely a friend of mine, I told her if she either tells the she forgot to sign time sheets hence not getting paid of just admit she never went in to work as she didnt feel 1 or 2 days was worth it, she is afraid of being done for befit fraud, but the truth is she has had no earnings come in as she did not go work as she said she did.

    Is she obliged to show statements and pay slips? what if she does not?

    why are DWP so bothered to know her earnings if DWP can find out through HRMC and national insurance? shouldnt' they know she cannot be earning that much if earnings do not appear? or do they want to check to see if she has been avoiding going to jobcetner by saying she works?
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Jan 18, 2:09 PM
    • 5,024 Posts
    • 10,198 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Cut?

    If she doesn't want to be done for fraud she needs to stop lying. Its quite easy.

    Theyre checking up on her because shes lying and theyre not all daft, and theyve worked it out.

    All earnings appear on HMRC records, not just 'some' As nothing is appearing they are assuming its cash in hand and therefore want to know what she is earning.

    No one can force her to provide payslips and statements, and she cannot force them to pay her UC.
    Last edited by marliepanda; 09-01-2018 at 2:28 PM.
    Survey Earnings 2017 - £163
    • butterflies56
    • By butterflies56 9th Jan 18, 3:11 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    butterflies56
    Is this benifit fraud? Yes!

    Lying to the Job Centre so as to avoid looking for work or attending the Job Centre

    She will be sanctioned.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 9th Jan 18, 6:49 PM
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    TELLIT01
    I've found two definitions of fraud.
    (1) wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
    (2) Fraud is the crime of gaining money or financial benefits by a trick or by lying
    The friend's actions would fall as fraud under (1) but possibly not under (2) as it could be argued there is no financial benefit. I say 'possibly' because it could equally be argued that there is financial benefit in that UC has been paid when the individual has provided false information to DWP. Had accurate information been provided i.e. not working but not undertaking the required jobsearch etc payment would have been sanctioned.
    Irrespective of the fine detail, the friend needs to come clean about it sooner rather than later.
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