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    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 8:13 AM
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    angelfire
    County Court Claim Excel parking/BW Legal, in need of help!
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 18, 8:13 AM
    County Court Claim Excel parking/BW Legal, in need of help! 8th Jan 18 at 8:13 AM
    Hi everyone,


    I posted on the Pepipoo forums yesterday but have been advised to come here for advice/help.


    I have read the Newbies thread, but have received a County Court Claim and so it says I'm to start a new thread, so here it is!


    Particulars of Claim

    The claimants claim is for the sum of £100.00 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a PCN issued on June/16 at (time stated) at Bryan House, Wigan ANPR Charging Scheme Std (60-100).

    The PCN relates to Ford under registration L*** ***.
    CN but the defendant failed to do so. Despite demand having been made, the defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.
    The claim also includes statutory interest pursuant to the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum daily rate of 0.02 from June 2016 to 01/01/2018 being an amount of £11.66. The claimant also claims £60.00 contractual costs pursuant to PCN T's & C's.



    I have stupidly ignored and thrown previous letters, as I didn't think they were genuine, but I do seem to remember now a letter arriving with a photo of my vehicle.
    As for the day in question, I'm not sure if it will have been myself driving, or my partner/family member. All I do know is that I don't ever park without a ticket, or as is more often the case, I use paybyphone. I do not know if the car park stated here uses that system or not.


    I have been on to the MCOL site and acknowledged receipt of the claim, but have no idea how to build a defence? I am hoping to gather some help from others, if it is felt that I can somehow fight this, or at least part of the cost?


    Thank you all in advance,


    D


    Edit to add: I have now read post 2 of the Newbies thread, but before I start to prepare a defence for others to peruse, I need more information about what they are actually taking me to court for. I need to know what, (If any), pics they have of my vehicle for a start. How do I go about getting this info? Who do I write to or call, would it be BW Legal or Excel Parking themselves?
    How do I decide whether signage on the car park is appropriate and indeed, it was so long ago, it could have been changed since the alleged occurred?





    Last edited by angelfire; 08-01-2018 at 8:48 AM. Reason: Additional text
Page 1
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 11:05 AM
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    angelfire
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:05 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:05 AM
    So I have read the Newbies Post 2 and onwards several times now and been to search for other similar cases. I have copied and pasted into a document for my own use, any good advice and tried to decipher what I should do first and it looks like I need to do a Section 18 request?


    I have found this as an example:



    To [Claimants Solicitor]

    I write with regards to the above mentioned County Court Claim. Please answer the following questions:-

    1. What is the basis of the claim? Is [Claimant] making a claim as an agent of the landowner or is [Claimant] making the claim as occupier in their own right?
    2. Is the amount claimed by [Claimant] for a genuine pre estimate of loss for a breach of contract or a contractual sum?
    3. If the contract has been conveyed by the use of signage on site, please provide copies of the signs on which you rely and confirm these are the signs in situ on the date of the event. Please also provide the date these signs were installed, for example, a works schedule, maintenance record or invoice for the work.
    4. Were there signs at the entrance to the site on the date in question? Did these meet the British Parking Association's Code of Practice Appendix B (Entrance signs) or the Independent Parking Committee’s Schedule 1 (Please indicate)
    5. A copy of the PCN Terms and Conditions

    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. I also require that answers to these questions be verified by a Statement of Truth by an authorised signatory of [Claimants Solicitor]






    I do not remember receiving a Notice to Keeper - should I be asking for a copy of that?


    Should I be asking for any photos they have?


    Is there anything else I have missed from this?


    Do I send this to BW Legal or Excel Parking?


    I'm assuming that I need to build my defence based on what they send back, if anything?


    If anyone can I help, it really would be appreciated!


    Many thanks!
    Last edited by angelfire; 08-01-2018 at 11:06 AM. Reason: line spacing
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
    Part 18 (not section) does not apply to small claims. They will simply refuse.

    Did you get a Letter Before Action? Yes or No.
    If Yes, when was this sent? After October 1st?

    Eitehr way, you should immediately ask for the follwing documents to narorw the issues under dispute:
    1) A copy of the alleged contract entered into, i..e copies of signage
    2) a copy of the notice to keeper they allege was sent
    3) a copy of the contract authorising them to offer parking at X site, in their own name, and to pursue the matter to court.

    etc

    Then while this is happening you build your defence. Go get your own photos, look on Google Street view, etc. Whatever you can to help

    All communication is via their solicitor. Thats what theyre paid to do.

    Issue date?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Jan 18, 11:42 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:42 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:42 AM
    How long was the overstay? Bryan House has a 10 minute grace.

    There is no pay by phone. There is pay by phone if you look at the signs there. Missed it.

    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 08-01-2018 at 12:17 PM.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    • 812 Posts
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    angelfire
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:49 AM
    Part 18 (not section) does not apply to small claims. They will simply refuse.

    Did you get a Letter Before Action? Yes or No.
    If Yes, when was this sent? After October 1st?

    Eitehr way, you should immediately ask for the follwing documents to narorw the issues under dispute:
    1) A copy of the alleged contract entered into, i..e copies of signage
    2) a copy of the notice to keeper they allege was sent
    3) a copy of the contract authorising them to offer parking at X site, in their own name, and to pursue the matter to court.

    etc

    Then while this is happening you build your defence. Go get your own photos, look on Google Street view, etc. Whatever you can to help

    All communication is via their solicitor. Thats what theyre paid to do.

    Issue date?
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001

    Issue date was 5th January


    I may have received a letter before action, I'm not sure?


    When I write to BW Legal, can I email and I'm assuming I put in all references from the claim?
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 11:50 AM
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    angelfire
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:50 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:50 AM
    How long was the overstay? Bryan House has a 10 minute grace.

    There is no pay by phone.

    Originally posted by IamEmanresu

    Thank you for the photo. I have no idea if there was any overstay. At this point I still don't know who was driving...
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • 812 Posts
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    angelfire
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    I need to get home to check my old diaries, as two years ago is a long way back to remember. However, there was one time where I have driven on to that car park, then off again due to there either being no spaces, or me having not enough change, I can't remember which. In which case, any photos they have, presumably need to show a gap of more than 10-15 minutes, is that correct?
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 7:37 PM
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    angelfire
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 7:37 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 7:37 PM
    So is the following okay to email to BW Legal tonight?:

    IN THE XXXX COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO: [should the X's say Northampton?]

    BETWEEN:

    Excel Parking Services Ltd [Claimant]

    and

    {MY NAME} [Defendant]

    PART 18 REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION - Should I delete this wording?

    To: Excel Parking Services Ltd

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. What is the basis of the claim. Are Excel Parking Services Ltd making a claim as an agent of the landowner or making the claim as occupier in their own right?

    2. Is the amount claimed by Excel Parking Services Ltd for a genuine pre estimate of loss for a breach of contract or a contractual sum?

    3. Please supply a copy of the alleged contract entered into, i..e copies of signage

    4. Please supply a copy of the notice to keeper you are alleging was sent

    5. If the contract has been conveyed by the use of signage on site, please provide copies of the signs on which you rely and confirm these are the signs in situ on the date of the event. Please also provide the date these signs were installed, for example, a works schedule, maintenance record or invoice for the work.

    6. Were there signs at the entrance to the site on the date in question? Did these meet the British Parking Association's Code of Practice Appendix B (Entrance signs) or the Independent Parking Committee’s Schedule 1 (Please indicate)

    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU.
    I also require that answers to these questions be verified by a Statement of Truth by an authorised signatory of Excel Parking Services Ltd
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 7:55 PM
    • 812 Posts
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    angelfire
    • #9
    • 8th Jan 18, 7:55 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jan 18, 7:55 PM
    I have just searched old paperwork and found a letter from BW Legal dated July 2017, stating Final Notice. I can use the details on here to mail the above request for information, I just need to check that it's ok before I send?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jan 18, 7:58 PM
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    KeithP
    The first line of post #3 may help you.
    .
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Jan 18, 8:02 PM
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    • 6,718 Thanks
    The Deep
    IMO that sign is far too fussy, different colours, different size type faces, far too much information.

    What do the lines of print at the very bottom say? At what height are they from the ground? What are its dimensions? Are any of its T&C unreasonable? Where is the penalty charge amount? it appears to be buried in the small print.

    Read the Excel v Cutts transcript..
    Last edited by The Deep; 08-01-2018 at 8:09 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
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    angelfire
    The first line of post #3 may help you.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    OK, with that wording removed, is it ok to send? There are many examples of defences on the net, the majority of which I've scoured as they day has gone on, but the correct wording when asking for further information because i no longer have all the letters, is not something I've been able to find. And I realise, that in order to formulate a decent defence, I could really do with this information. What I don't want to do, is send the wrong thing!
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 8:08 PM
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    angelfire
    IMO that sign is far too fussy, different colours, different size type faces, jazzy background, far too much information.

    What do the lines of print at the very bottom say? At what height are they from the ground? What are its dimensions? Are any of its T&C unreasonable? Where is the penalty charge. it appears tyo beburied in the small print.


    Read the Excel v Cutts transcript..
    Originally posted by The Deep
    I will need to visit the site to judge all of this, but intend to tomorrow evening. However, I'm not convinced that particular signage was in place at the date of the alleged contravention, hence me asking for them to state the date it was put in place.

    Thank you for your help and suggestion to read Excel v Cutts, I will go and search for that now.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jan 18, 8:14 PM
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    KeithP
    OK, with that wording removed, is it ok to send? There are many examples of defences on the net, the majority of which I've scoured as they day has gone on, but the correct wording when asking for further information because i no longer have all the letters, is not something I've been able to find. And I realise, that in order to formulate a decent defence, I could really do with this information. What I don't want to do, is send the wrong thing!
    Originally posted by !!!!!!!!!
    Aren't you really looking for a LBC rebuttal letter at this stage?

    There are some linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread which list all the things that should be supplied but are perhaps not.
    The first three links in that post will help.

    Just tailor one to suit what you have received and what you still need.



    [no idea why your user name has come out at !!!!!!!!! in the quote header. There seems to be something magical about angelfire.]
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-01-2018 at 8:22 PM.
    .
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 8th Jan 18, 8:54 PM
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    • 184 Thanks
    angelfire
    Aren't you really looking for a LBC rebuttal letter at this stage?

    There are some linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread which list all the things that should be supplied but are perhaps not.
    The first three links in that post will help.

    Just tailor one to suit what you have received and what you still need.



    [no idea why your user name has come out at !!!!!!!!! in the quote header. There seems to be something magical about angelfire.]
    Originally posted by KeithP
    No idea why my username does that, it always has done!

    Can I still send an LBC rebuttal letter? Or should it be a letter, requesting the same information, just not called a rebuttal letter, if that make sense?!
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 9th Jan 18, 9:38 AM
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    angelfire
    Okay so I'm going around in circles and I haven't even started on any kind of defence yet. I'm being told on my own (this) thread, that a Part 18 request is not appropriate to my case, yet when reading through other similar cases as has been suggested, I find this thread here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5478608


    where the chap in question has used one at the same stage as I am at now - or am I missing something?


    Then it's been suggested I need more of an LBC rebuttal letter instead, but again, as far as I can see, this should be used prior to receiving the court claim papers, which I already have!


    I need to send something to BW Legal today, or I'm going to really struggle building a defence when I don't even know what it is I'm defending!


    If I call them are they likely to tell me what the original paperwork says? If not, which of the above should I be sending?


    all and any help whatsoever is greatly appreciated!


    D x
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Jan 18, 10:20 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    2016!!!!!!!!

    As told. Part 18 does not apply to claims on the Small Claims Track. You DO NOT call it a part 18, but instead make reference to the overiding objective and that you require the documents to narrow the issues under dispute.

    Youve also been told some common defences. Its always about standing and signage, and no keeper liability if that is still in place

    NEVER EVER call them.
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 9th Jan 18, 10:50 AM
    • 812 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    angelfire
    2016!!!!!!!!

    As told. Part 18 does not apply to claims on the Small Claims Track. You DO NOT call it a part 18, but instead make reference to the overiding objective and that you require the documents to narrow the issues under dispute.

    Youve also been told some common defences. Its always about standing and signage, and no keeper liability if that is still in place

    NEVER EVER call them.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001

    Okay, thank you. I have drafted the following:




    To BW Legal

    I write with regards to the above mentioned County Court Claim.
    To ensure that I have all of the information required and to narrow the issues under dispute. Please answer the following questions:-

    1. Please can you give an explanation of the cause of action?



    2.Please can you supply a copy of any Notice To Keeper that may have been sent?


    3. Is Excel Parking pursuing me as the driver or keeper?


    3.What is the basis of the claim? Is Excel Parking making a claim as an agent of the landowner or are they making the claim as occupier in their own right?


    4. Is the amount claimed by Excel Parking for a genuine pre estimate of loss for a breach of contract or a contractual sum?


    5. If the contract has been conveyed by the use of signage on site, please provide copies of the signs on which you rely and confirm these are the signs in situ on the date of the event. Please also provide the date these signs were installed, for example, a works schedule, maintenance record or invoice for the work.


    6. Were there signs at the entrance to the site on the date in question? Did these meet the British Parking Association's Code of Practice Appendix B (Entrance signs) or the Independent Parking Committee’s Schedule 1 (Please indicate)


    7. A copy of the PCN Terms and Conditions





    Please can you provide the above information within 14 days.



    Does this look ok to send? As far as I can see, I think I've covered everything?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jan 18, 11:03 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    I'm not convinced that particular signage was in place at the date of the alleged contravention, hence me asking for them to state the date it was put in place.
    The signs have changed over the period but they are all broadly similar

    Is Excel Parking making a claim as an agent of the landowner or are they making the claim as occupier in their own right?
    They are occupiers in their own right. Simple way to confirm this is to ask the local council who pays the Non-Domestic Rates which will be Excel.

    Your strongest argument will be that they are chasing the driver or the person they think was driving. Their paperwork is not POFA compliant so if you have evidence of being elsewhere that day, it should kill it.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • angelfire
    • By angelfire 9th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
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    angelfire
    The signs have changed over the period but they are all broadly similar



    They are occupiers in their own right. Simple way to confirm this is to ask the local council who pays the Non-Domestic Rates which will be Excel.

    Your strongest argument will be that they are chasing the driver or the person they think was driving. Their paperwork is not POFA compliant so if you have evidence of being elsewhere that day, it should kill it.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu

    Ok, I will take that point out.


    Many thanks!
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