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  • FIRST POST
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 111Posts
    • 102Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work 7th Jan 18 at 11:31 AM
    Hi there,

    My wife is having some issues at a well-known shopping store chain in the UK.

    For the last 10 weeks, she has been suspended on full pay, no one else has been suspended and it has taken the company 10 weeks to respond.

    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?

    I find the whole situation very suspicious, almost like a setup and my wife is taking the blame.

    Please see the statement below, with responses from my wife. We have not posted the responses back to CompanyX, however, we do plan on doing so tomorrow first class post.

    FYI names have been changed to protect the guilty

    Thank you and sorry it is a long post

    MrNiceGuy_007


    [Stamement]
    Remit
    To establish whether there are any reasonable grounds to believe that Mini Mouse may have stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here]
    which may constitute Gross Misconduct and therefore if there is a disciplinary case to answer by Mini Mouse or not.
    Process
    Investigation held with Mini Mouse (frontline colleague) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Donald Duck (Duty Manager) on [date here]
    Documents reviewed: Weekly cash discrepancy report

    General Observations
    Mini Mouse - Frontline Colleague - Suspended

    Findings
    Allegation: That Mini Mouse has stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here], as she was the only cashier on the till that day between 2pm-7pm.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Incorrect I started work at 15:00 and finished at 18:00. I was not the only person signed on the till that day, Donald took over the till after I finished my shift to serve the last of the customers until about 19:00. Also, the store opens at 08:00 and two other staff members had full access to the till 8 hours before I was even on the premises.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    As there has been cash loss issues within the store we have put processes in place to monitor cash loss effectively.
    These processes were put into place as there has been cash loss issues within the store and myself (Daisy Duck) store manager wanted to minimise the areas in which the cash loss was occuring. This included making sure that there was only one cashier per till each day to minimise the amount of people using a specific till in one day but also so any cash errors could be quickly resolved.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As explained above I was not the only person on the till that day and therefore someone else must have stolen the cash or made a mistake counting the cash before or after. May I also point out that the money is transferred from the till to the cash office by two different people, therefore I have no control of how the cash is handled before cash is placed and after it is removed from the till.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After looking into this report and looking at the cash office balances at the end of the night this being [day] [date] it clearly shows that £123.45 was missing from till 1 once it had been cashed up.


    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal £123.45? why not just £100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    No CCTV covering this specific till or the cash office

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    I am very surprised to hear this, as Daisy Duck informed me that the cameras were repositioned over the tills after I reported Ursula serving herself and placing money in her pocket. It cannot be fairly stated or even proven the cash was stolen by myself or another member of staff without CCTV.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    Reviewed all reports available and there are no unusual transactions.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Please define an unusual transaction.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Mini Mouse, the cashier on that till on the [date here] at 15.43pm, she was unable to give a reason as to why the till would be down by £123.88. She explained that she always gives the correct change and that she cant explain were the money has gone. When asked has Mini stolen the money she replied 'no I would never steal from the company, lye never stolen in my life.' Mini was unable to remember that there were any unusual transactions that day and therefore there is no explanation as to were the money has gone and therefore we have concluded that the money has been stolen.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    I am unable to explain how or where the cash has gone and it would be highly unlikely I have given the incorrect change for such a large cash reconciliation error.
    I know with full certainty the cash was not stolen by myself and therefore I can only assume either a counting error or theft has been made by another member of staff.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) and member of management who checked and issued the tills that day. He explained that the tills were checked by himself that morning before they were issued to ensure that the correct amount of £250 was in each till to prevent cash loss. He couldn't explain as to why the till would be down at the end of the night. When asked who else had been on the till that day he replied Mini. Donald was the duty manager that day in charge of cashing up the tills and finalising the safe count.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As previously stated this could be an innocent cash accounting mistake by a trainee member of staff.
    Other than Donald’s word, please provide further evidence that precisely £250 was present before my shift. Please note, I have not been informed to count the cash before my shift; therefore I am placing my trust in other people, which has been a mistake.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing £120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Please explain under what circumstances would any cash be distributed across different tills, because I find the above statement highly unlikely and does not come under any training provided to date.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    When he cashed everything up he realised it wasn't in the tills, he then went onto counting the safe twice and it wasn't there so he rang Daffy Duck to ask what to do. He wanted to make Daffy aware of the issues so he didn't come in the next day totally unaware of the cash loss. Donald then confirmed what he should do which is what Daffy had already done and Donald said he would investigate it the following day. He confirms that Donald issued the tills that day and that the tills are checked every morning to ensure that the floats are correct.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As stated above, please provide further evidence that a full amount of £250 was present in the till before I started my shift.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    Summary
    Till was was Issued however later that day when it was cashed up the till was minus £123.45. the only colleague that had used the till that day was Mini Mouse. Daffy Duck being the trainee supervisor issuing the tills and Donald Duck being the duty manager that day cashing up the tills.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As mentioned in the summary above I can only agree that I was the only person on that till from 15:00 until 18:00 that day, however, I was not the only person to have access to the till on that day. Daffy signed in to issue the till float, I (Mini) served customers and Donald did serve customers until about 19:00 and remove the cash from the till after my shift ended.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse as she was the only cashier on the till on that day when the cash loss occured and as we have put in measures to monitor cash Ioss effectively this made it easier for the store to monitor as there is only 1 operator per till per day.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    On [day] [date here] when interviewed by Daisy Duck she showed me the till sheet, which did show myself, Daffy Duck and Donald Duck’s staff number signed on that day. Where Daisy states one operator per till per day, I recall seeing within the same week four plus staff numbers signed on another till. Therefore the validity of Daisy Duck's statement must be untrue, and apparently, the new measure has not been strictly followed and opens a question of what other procedures are not strictly followed in regards to the tills.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 07-01-2018 at 11:40 AM.
Page 4
    • CIS
    • By CIS 8th Jan 18, 6:54 PM
    • 10,197 Posts
    • 5,851 Thanks
    CIS
    wow - a lot of excellent views on this thread, thank you for taking the time to respond.

    Just to summarise.

    # Daffy logged into the till before opening hours to install the cash float
    # Mini logged into the till at 15:00 and logged out at 18:00.
    # Donald logged in at 18:00 to serve the remaining customers, removed the float then took it to the cash office at 19:00
    #There are no timestamps when people log in and out of the till only the date.
    #No CCTV over the tills or in the cashing up office.

    Oh, btw I think Donald has a gambling addiction because he openly discusses gambling and has shown his bank balance of something pence on the same day he has just got paid! I know Mini cannot say this to the investigator but thought it would help paint the picture of what my wife is up against.

    Financially, my wife does not need to work; this job is just a social activity to get out her of the house. If my wife ever required money she would just ask.

    Pointing the finger again, but I think something fishy is going on with all three of them.

    Reading other experiences management stealing is undoubtedly familiar.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    There are no timestamps on the till login but if others logged on to the same till on the same day where's the record of that ?

    Is the way the manager etc deals with the cash in breach of the company cash handling policy ?

    What is the company policy on checking the till on a change of operator ?
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 8th Jan 18, 8:10 PM
    • 1,463 Posts
    • 1,511 Thanks
    Fireflyaway
    I once worked for a high street store. Let's call them tarts pews. I was unexpectedly told not to report to work for a week. Turned out money was going missing on the late shift when only myself and one other person was working. They asked me not to go in because they already thought it was her and sure enough money went missing when I wasn't in. Phew! It was a horrible feeling even though I knew I was innocent.
    The amount you state seems odd. Could it be a refund was done and not entered on the till correctly? Could someone have taken money from one till and outfit vin another because it was short on cash for change? Could the actual till device be wrong? I reconcile large sums of cash from machines and there are often errors with the chips not reporting correctly so the actual sum is different to what the machine says but then balances out after a day or two.
    Why has it taken 10 weeks?
    I'd not want to look guilty but I don't think I could return to somewhere where they thought I was a thief. I'd tell them in no uncertain terms I'm innocent but I'd look for another job.
    • Lorian
    • By Lorian 8th Jan 18, 8:19 PM
    • 4,199 Posts
    • 2,326 Thanks
    Lorian
    it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    Doesn't this important last question remain unanswered?

    I know personally I'd turn up with my lawyer, but I'm sure others have better advice.
    • CIS
    • By CIS 8th Jan 18, 8:29 PM
    • 10,197 Posts
    • 5,851 Thanks
    CIS
    Doesn't this important last question remain unanswered?

    I know personally I'd turn up with my lawyer, but I'm sure others have better advice.
    Originally posted by Lorian
    Assuming CAB is correct a lawyer would only be allowed with the company's agreement.

    If you are asked to go to a disciplinary meeting, you have the right to be accompanied by:
    • a colleague
    • a trade union representative, or
    • an official employed by a trade union.
    You don't have a right to bring anyone else. You can ask your employer if someone else can accompany you, but they don't have to agree to this. They may have a policy of allowing a wider range of people to come with you.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Jan 18, 11:12 PM
    • 37,940 Posts
    • 34,404 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    Assuming CAB is correct a lawyer would only be allowed with the company's agreement.
    Originally posted by CIS
    CAB is correct on this one. Mrs OP can turn up with a solicitor, her local councillor, her MP, Uncle Tom Cobley and all if she likes, but the company is only required to allow a colleague or a TU rep or a TU employee to support her. Anyone else can be turned away.
    Still knitting!
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    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jan 18, 8:30 AM
    • 4,399 Posts
    • 7,340 Thanks
    sangie595
    Doesn't this important last question remain unanswered?

    I know personally I'd turn up with my lawyer, but I'm sure others have better advice.
    Originally posted by Lorian
    No. Because it's been answered at least twice! If toy wish to ask a colleague to accompany you then toy must first ask the investigating manager or HR for permission to speak to them. The colleague is not obligated to agree.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 9th Jan 18, 10:59 AM
    • 111 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    So the hearing is today, my wife is still there now. Just received a text and the transactions on the till have an employee number next to each one.

    The investigators have now gone through the transactions, and they show Donald Duck's (Duty Manager) employee reference on sales before and after my wife was even at work!

    The investigators are now investigating Dasiy and Donald Duck because they have lied on the statements provided.

    Result!

    Thanks to all for the advice, as always it has been golden.
    • Peter999
    • By Peter999 9th Jan 18, 11:01 AM
    • 491 Posts
    • 529 Thanks
    Peter999
    Great news.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 9th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 111 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    The investigators are now investigating Dasiy and Donald Duck because they have lied on the statements provided.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    I spoke too soon.

    My wife just got sacked for gross misconduct, she can appeal within five days.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Jan 18, 11:36 AM
    • 1,797 Posts
    • 1,633 Thanks
    Comms69
    I spoke too soon.

    My wife just got sacked for gross misconduct, she can appeal within five days.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007


    She could appeal, but it would only get her a notice period payment.


    Sorry for the bad news
    • montyrebel
    • By montyrebel 9th Jan 18, 12:17 PM
    • 560 Posts
    • 462 Thanks
    montyrebel
    get appealing, it sounds like she has done nothing wrong, get on the phone to the union, even as a none member they will offer some advice
    mortui non mordent
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Jan 18, 12:19 PM
    • 1,797 Posts
    • 1,633 Thanks
    Comms69
    get appealing, it sounds like she has done nothing wrong, get on the phone to the union, even as a none member they will offer some advice
    Originally posted by montyrebel


    It doesn't matter, she has under two years service. There's so little recourse here.
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 12:44 PM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    Under two years and thanks for pointing this out.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    I can't understand why the store has suspended her on full pay.

    If I had an employee with under two years service who I strongly suspected of theft then they would be fired on the spot as there would be nothing that they could do about it in terms of claiming unfair dismissal.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Jan 18, 12:53 PM
    • 1,797 Posts
    • 1,633 Thanks
    Comms69
    I can't understand why the store has suspended her on full pay.

    If I had an employee with under two years service who I strongly suspected of theft then they would be fired on the spot as there would be nothing that they could do about it in terms of claiming unfair dismissal.
    Originally posted by PersianCatLady
    Indeed, I suspect that someone, somewhere was genuinely trying to be fair.


    I also suspect the wife may have actually stolen it (sorry OP, someone we don't know those closest to us) - because it doesn't make sense to suspend, just to sack, unless there was real evidence. - obviously I could be wrong, and hope I am.
    • CIS
    • By CIS 9th Jan 18, 3:42 PM
    • 10,197 Posts
    • 5,851 Thanks
    CIS
    As I see it there's three main considerations that the employer could have taken on this one to dismiss her - one) the wife took the money in their opinion, two) she was guilty of gross-misconduct for some reason even if the money wasn't taken, three) they suspect the management are involved but can't also rule out the wife is also involved.

    In some ways the company had been fair in suspending rather than just dismissing but as above, appeal anyway and see what happens. It'll probably amount to nothing but you never know.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery as I'm now a self employed Council Tax advisor and consultant with my own Council Tax consultancy business. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
    • newatc
    • By newatc 9th Jan 18, 5:40 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 159 Thanks
    newatc
    After the experience of being accused and suspension, staying with the company was not very likely.

    The reason of "gross misconduct" is worrying for future employment prospects. Difficult to understand the employer's motives at this distance.
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 9th Jan 18, 6:12 PM
    • 1,463 Posts
    • 1,511 Thanks
    Fireflyaway
    I'm no expert but there is a big difference between thinking someone may have possibly done something because the sums don't add up and actually being able to prove 100% with evidence that they did.
    If they were sure your wife did something wrong surely she would have been sacked much sooner? It seems odd.
    I'd be worried about the risk of bad references. I think its worth bringing up the point that its unfair to put your wife at a disadvantage because of something untrue. If the company really think your wife committed theft, why don't they bring a criminal prosecution? Probably because they don't have enough proof.
    • Always Alba
    • By Always Alba 9th Jan 18, 6:23 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Always Alba
    So what now?
    Your wife has now been sacked and whilst that is never good to hear, it at least removes some uncertainty and gives you back an amount of control. I was sacked from a job last year so can offer her some advice.
    Firstly, understand that gross misconduct is a companies opinion of what they believe has happened, it is not necessarily the truth. And people are sacked for a million different reasons, just read some of the other threads on MSE and you will see how even small acts can get a person fired.
    Should you appeal?. Your decision and should be considered when a person still wants to work for that company. I would say do it more in hope than expectation. In my case i didn't appeal as there was no way i wanted to go back to my old job.

    If you don't appeal then you have to accept getting a new job will be made more difficult by having GM on your record, but its not impossible. You say your wife doesn't need to work so if your money is ok, thats one big worry you don't have.

    The main thing is to put space between your old job and the present. This could take a short period of time so if the money is ok, don't rush things. Reflect, rest and refresh.

    When you are ready,
    1. Update your CV. You dont have to state the reason for leaving your last job at this stage.
    2. Decide what you would like to do going forward. Sometimes events like this will be the big push you have always needed to go and do a more fulfilling job.
    3. Consider volunteering NOW. This will both keep you occupied and within a very short period of time, you will be able to use them as a reference.
    4. If you do apply for new jobs, decide what you will say if asked about your sacking. Never lie if asked a direct question about it.
    5. Don't overly worry about references. My last Company would only provide dates of employment and nothing else.
    6. Accept you wont get certain jobs because of the sacking.

    Perhaps the best advice i can give is this. Today you are only half way through your story, it is not the end. In six months time you will hopefully look back in a much better position.
    In my case, i was fired in january and by april i had a new and better job. I had several interviews without success and i was honest at every interview. In the end my new company recognised i had more qualities than the one bad mark. It's now nearly a year ago and everything seems so long ago.

    As long as you keep supporting your wife, you will get through it.

    Good luck.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 9th Jan 18, 7:52 PM
    • 6,158 Posts
    • 7,920 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    I'm no expert but there is a big difference between thinking someone may have possibly done something because the sums don't add up and actually being able to prove 100% with evidence that they did.
    If they were sure your wife did something wrong surely she would have been sacked much sooner? It seems odd.
    I'd be worried about the risk of bad references. I think its worth bringing up the point that its unfair to put your wife at a disadvantage because of something untrue. If the company really think your wife committed theft, why don't they bring a criminal prosecution? Probably because they don't have enough proof.
    Originally posted by Fireflyaway
    They don't have to prove it to a criminal standard. They simply have to follow a fair process and reach a reasonable conclusion. It doesn't have to be the *only* reasonable outcome.

    They may or may not involve the police as well. It would then e up to the police to determine whether to press charges.However, the employer might decide not to involve the police, for any number of reasons.

    For instance, they may feel that a police investigations would be demoralising for other staff, or that the potential publicity for the company if someone is charged and taken to court would be harmful, or that the cost to the business of manners or other staff having to give statements, attend court etc would be more than the value of the loss, or simply that it's too much hassle for a relatively small loss, where they attribute the loss to someone whom they have already dismissed.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jan 18, 8:24 PM
    • 4,399 Posts
    • 7,340 Thanks
    sangie595
    get appealing, it sounds like she has done nothing wrong, get on the phone to the union, even as a none member they will offer some advice
    Originally posted by montyrebel
    A union that gives advice to non members? Which union is that? Why join a union when they'll advise anyone, paid up or not? Not going to happen...
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