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  • FIRST POST
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 111Posts
    • 102Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work 7th Jan 18 at 11:31 AM
    Hi there,

    My wife is having some issues at a well-known shopping store chain in the UK.

    For the last 10 weeks, she has been suspended on full pay, no one else has been suspended and it has taken the company 10 weeks to respond.

    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?

    I find the whole situation very suspicious, almost like a setup and my wife is taking the blame.

    Please see the statement below, with responses from my wife. We have not posted the responses back to CompanyX, however, we do plan on doing so tomorrow first class post.

    FYI names have been changed to protect the guilty

    Thank you and sorry it is a long post

    MrNiceGuy_007


    [Stamement]
    Remit
    To establish whether there are any reasonable grounds to believe that Mini Mouse may have stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here]
    which may constitute Gross Misconduct and therefore if there is a disciplinary case to answer by Mini Mouse or not.
    Process
    Investigation held with Mini Mouse (frontline colleague) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Donald Duck (Duty Manager) on [date here]
    Documents reviewed: Weekly cash discrepancy report

    General Observations
    Mini Mouse - Frontline Colleague - Suspended

    Findings
    Allegation: That Mini Mouse has stolen £123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here], as she was the only cashier on the till that day between 2pm-7pm.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Incorrect I started work at 15:00 and finished at 18:00. I was not the only person signed on the till that day, Donald took over the till after I finished my shift to serve the last of the customers until about 19:00. Also, the store opens at 08:00 and two other staff members had full access to the till 8 hours before I was even on the premises.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    As there has been cash loss issues within the store we have put processes in place to monitor cash loss effectively.
    These processes were put into place as there has been cash loss issues within the store and myself (Daisy Duck) store manager wanted to minimise the areas in which the cash loss was occuring. This included making sure that there was only one cashier per till each day to minimise the amount of people using a specific till in one day but also so any cash errors could be quickly resolved.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As explained above I was not the only person on the till that day and therefore someone else must have stolen the cash or made a mistake counting the cash before or after. May I also point out that the money is transferred from the till to the cash office by two different people, therefore I have no control of how the cash is handled before cash is placed and after it is removed from the till.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After looking into this report and looking at the cash office balances at the end of the night this being [day] [date] it clearly shows that £123.45 was missing from till 1 once it had been cashed up.


    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal £123.45? why not just £100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    No CCTV covering this specific till or the cash office

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    I am very surprised to hear this, as Daisy Duck informed me that the cameras were repositioned over the tills after I reported Ursula serving herself and placing money in her pocket. It cannot be fairly stated or even proven the cash was stolen by myself or another member of staff without CCTV.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    Reviewed all reports available and there are no unusual transactions.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Please define an unusual transaction.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Mini Mouse, the cashier on that till on the [date here] at 15.43pm, she was unable to give a reason as to why the till would be down by £123.88. She explained that she always gives the correct change and that she cant explain were the money has gone. When asked has Mini stolen the money she replied 'no I would never steal from the company, lye never stolen in my life.' Mini was unable to remember that there were any unusual transactions that day and therefore there is no explanation as to were the money has gone and therefore we have concluded that the money has been stolen.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    I am unable to explain how or where the cash has gone and it would be highly unlikely I have given the incorrect change for such a large cash reconciliation error.
    I know with full certainty the cash was not stolen by myself and therefore I can only assume either a counting error or theft has been made by another member of staff.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) and member of management who checked and issued the tills that day. He explained that the tills were checked by himself that morning before they were issued to ensure that the correct amount of £250 was in each till to prevent cash loss. He couldn't explain as to why the till would be down at the end of the night. When asked who else had been on the till that day he replied Mini. Donald was the duty manager that day in charge of cashing up the tills and finalising the safe count.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As previously stated this could be an innocent cash accounting mistake by a trainee member of staff.
    Other than Donald’s word, please provide further evidence that precisely £250 was present before my shift. Please note, I have not been informed to count the cash before my shift; therefore I am placing my trust in other people, which has been a mistake.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing £120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    Please explain under what circumstances would any cash be distributed across different tills, because I find the above statement highly unlikely and does not come under any training provided to date.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    When he cashed everything up he realised it wasn't in the tills, he then went onto counting the safe twice and it wasn't there so he rang Daffy Duck to ask what to do. He wanted to make Daffy aware of the issues so he didn't come in the next day totally unaware of the cash loss. Donald then confirmed what he should do which is what Daffy had already done and Donald said he would investigate it the following day. He confirms that Donald issued the tills that day and that the tills are checked every morning to ensure that the floats are correct.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As stated above, please provide further evidence that a full amount of £250 was present in the till before I started my shift.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    Summary
    Till was was Issued however later that day when it was cashed up the till was minus £123.45. the only colleague that had used the till that day was Mini Mouse. Daffy Duck being the trainee supervisor issuing the tills and Donald Duck being the duty manager that day cashing up the tills.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    As mentioned in the summary above I can only agree that I was the only person on that till from 15:00 until 18:00 that day, however, I was not the only person to have access to the till on that day. Daffy signed in to issue the till float, I (Mini) served customers and Donald did serve customers until about 19:00 and remove the cash from the till after my shift ended.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]

    I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse as she was the only cashier on the till on that day when the cash loss occured and as we have put in measures to monitor cash Ioss effectively this made it easier for the store to monitor as there is only 1 operator per till per day.

    [Response from Mini Mouse on (date removed)]
    On [day] [date here] when interviewed by Daisy Duck she showed me the till sheet, which did show myself, Daffy Duck and Donald Duck’s staff number signed on that day. Where Daisy states one operator per till per day, I recall seeing within the same week four plus staff numbers signed on another till. Therefore the validity of Daisy Duck's statement must be untrue, and apparently, the new measure has not been strictly followed and opens a question of what other procedures are not strictly followed in regards to the tills.
    [Response from Mini Mouse END]
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 07-01-2018 at 11:40 AM.
Page 2
    • PrettyKittyKat
    • By PrettyKittyKat 7th Jan 18, 2:01 PM
    • 141 Posts
    • 221 Thanks
    PrettyKittyKat
    I used to work in a major high street retail store when I was a student, the latter couple of years was in the cashing up office.

    We had similar ways of trying to minimise cash loss - trying to keep one person to each till (or as little people as possible), having CCTV directed over the tills and of course in the cash office. We always counted floats at the start, put them out, then counted the tills at the end of the night. We had a particularly large store so when we were experiencing cash loss we would cash up a till at the end of each persons shift before the next person could use it so if there was cash loss it could be pinpointed to one person - but this extra precaution was used rarely. So the process they were following is quite normal, my concern is that there is no CCTV over the till?

    I don't think we ever would have taken a member of staff to a disciplinary over one cash loss though, rather we would have collected a handful of instances to provide stronger evidence that they were stealing and not making an honest mistake. How often does your partner work? Could she ask for the cash figures on the till she has worked the shifts four weeks prior to this maybe?

    Has your wife seen copies all all transactions on the till that day (including any she did not do)? If not, ask if these can be sent and consider the below...

    When we had cash loss and had to investigate it these are some of the genuine errors that I would look for that may have caused it. You partner may not have stolen the money but she still may have made a genuine mistake which has caused the cash loss to show, if you can find this then it can be rectified and show she is not a thief.

    - Vouchers inputted as cash by mistake, therefore voucher count would be up but cash would be down.
    - Transactions for the amount of money missing. In this instance I would look for the exact figure but also the rounded figure of £120 as like you said someone is unlikely to have stolen £123.45.
    - Discounts added to refunds amount to this missing figure in one transaction (maybe the discount was added in error but the correct amount of money given back?)
    - Any sales for that exact amount? Could it be that the sale was 'cashed off' as a mistake was made and should have then be reversed (usually only a supervisor can do this) but this was forgotten?

    I think from your replies your partner has already seen the list of all staff codes signed in on that till on the day, but if she hasn't I would request this also.
    • Muscle750
    • By Muscle750 7th Jan 18, 2:14 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 280 Thanks
    Muscle750
    Unless they got proof ie CCTV or such i reckon they cant do anything apart from hoping you will resign . Ask them for proof otherwise you will contest it to what ever level deemed necessary believe me when you got wannabe managers trying stir the preverbial and make a name for themselves they suddenly realise you can do them far more damage than they can do to you. Years ago we were all accused of stealing parts a few weeks later one evening someone caught a employee outside at 10 pm with his car boot open his wife used to do the office cleaning so he had access to set of keys. Inside his car boot was items he should not have had boxes with Job numbers on etc with parts in. The following day two of us confronted and informed the manager what was seen the previous evening. He then shut the door and told us nothing to do with us and mind our own even thou we had been accused prior . It transpired that the manager was in on it and they were sharing the sale proceeds needless to sway neither of them lasted.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 3:19 PM
    • 111 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    It transpired that the manager was in on it and they were sharing the sale proceeds needless to sway neither of them lasted.
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    That is exactly how my wife situation looks and feels. Thank-you for sharing your experience.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 7th Jan 18, 3:44 PM
    • 32,857 Posts
    • 27,614 Thanks
    custardy
    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?
    your wife can take a fellow employee,who will obviously be privvy to the case.
    The point of not discussing it relates to with staff in general.

    TBH I think the only way to approach it is no idea where the money is.
    • confident correct change was given
    • Didnt take the money

    Pushing back
    • multiple people using the till,both before and after your wifes shift
    • No cashing up/checking procedure between people using the tills
    • No record of cash in the till when your wife took over


    Sadly I dont see much you can do beyond this.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 3:50 PM
    • 111 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    is no CCTV over the till?
    Originally posted by PrettyKittyKat
    Apparently, there is no CCTV over the tills or in the cashing up office, which I find completely bizarre

    How often does your partner work? Could she ask for the cash figures on the till she has worked the shifts four weeks prior to this maybe?
    Has your wife seen copies all transactions on the till that day (including any she did not do)? If not, ask if these can be sent and consider the below...
    Originally posted by PrettyKittyKat
    It varies, the shift pattern is not consistent.

    Not sure if they will provide four weeks but I can ask. We will certainly ask for a copy of transactions on that till for the entire day. If any fall outside my wife's shift this will help defend her case.


    I think from your replies your partner has already seen the list of all staff codes signed in on that till on the day, but if she hasn't I would request this also.
    Originally posted by PrettyKittyKat
    Yes, but they do not show exact times when people were signed in. I guess the transactions will complement this.


    Someone else mentioned about requesting information from the very beginning not months later. We did try too but we have been ignored up to this point.

    The day after my wife was suspended we asked the store manager Dasiy Duck to provide her and HR's email address, we received back a Gmail address which was not even real! So my wife then asked again and we only received "dasiy.duck@companyx.co.uk", still no HR email. There was no email address in the employment contract and no handbook provided. Tried contacting the area manager and got no response.

    A week later we received a letter from HR about the suspension which did have an email. We then started to send emails requesting stuff. Still, we have received nothing back.

    My wife has been told not to contact anyone from the store or attend any of the CompanyX's premises. However, Dasiy Duck keeps sending social type messages to my wife on Facebook, which she ignores.

    Snipping from Dasiy Duck statement
    "I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse"

    Given that statement, Dasiy Duck is directly involved and trying contact via Facebook is very unprofessional.
    • Muscle750
    • By Muscle750 7th Jan 18, 4:10 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 280 Thanks
    Muscle750
    All sounds very familar when we asked for head of HR email i got from the manager its confidential and i cant give you it within 30 secs i stood in front of them and got it straight of the company website and showed them what it was in case they couldnt access it. Plus the wages were always wrong so we started taking pics of the comp screen at end of week on our phone so we had proof. I had WW3 one day with one manger over the wages totally adament they were right and threatened me with HR as my attitude etc I proceeded to get my ipad showed them the screen images and its "Oh Oh Oh i see where ive gone wrong............" still took me 3 months to get what i was owed thou
    • Nothanks
    • By Nothanks 7th Jan 18, 4:28 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 84 Thanks
    Nothanks
    Unless they got proof ie CCTV or such i reckon they cant do anything apart from hoping you will resign . Ask them for proof otherwise you will contest it to what ever level deemed necessary.
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    Sorry but I think this isn't great advice.

    Your employer doesn't have to prove anything, they just have to evidence that they investigated thoroughly and fairly to form a reasonable belief.

    Also with sub two years service, threatening to contest it isn't really a threat as you have no recourse to unfair dismissal. Unless you're claiming discrimination or whistleblowing.

    Best to focus on the facts and the investigation. Fact - logged on at x, logged off at y. Etc.

    Also politely question the investigation - how many of the tills transactions were while you were on shift? 20%? 50%? Were there any unusual or large transactions, have they reconciled the card receipts to identify cash transactions etc etc

    I don't want to be pessimistic about the situation or put you off, but there's a high chance of dismissal here.
    Anything I post is solely MY OPINION. It never constitutes legal, financial or collective bargaining advice. I may tell you based on information given how I might approach an employment dispute case, but you should always seek advice from your own Union representative. If you don't have one, get one!
    • flowrypot
    • By flowrypot 7th Jan 18, 4:41 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    flowrypot
    https://www.gov.uk/disciplinary-procedures-and-action-at-work
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 5:56 PM
    • 6,432 Posts
    • 4,935 Thanks
    ohreally
    However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    If she wishes a colleague companion then she contacts HR to inform them of her intention or she may be looking at an additional disciplinary being convened.
    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 7th Jan 18, 7:02 PM
    • 554 Posts
    • 421 Thanks
    mac.d
    If she wishes a colleague companion then she contacts HR to inform them of her intention or she may be looking at an additional disciplinary being convened.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    This happened with an employer I worked with. Person A (who wasn't in a union) was suspended while an investigation was ongoing, they had no contact with any colleagues, due to similar stipulations outlined in the OP's case, and Person B got a request via HR to attend the investigation interview as Person A's fellow employee. Person B turned down the request though, so be careful who you ask.
    Last edited by mac.d; 07-01-2018 at 7:07 PM.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 7th Jan 18, 7:23 PM
    • 371 Posts
    • 363 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    Have to say but I agree with the amount being an odd amount to steal! That was my first thought. That being said, a level 2 thief (someone who thinks about it in more depth) may well steal an odd amount to make it look less obvious. So I think that's a moot argument despite the logic behind it.

    I've only ever been "accused" of stealing once, and it was very short-lived as the manager sided with me (some girl took over my till but she needed to use it before I could cash up. In the space of about 10 minutes she had lifted £60). I ended up giving her a hard time all shift because I knew it was her and in the end she cracked. I found the £60 dumped on the pavement outside work when she got a taxi home It did look dodgy that I found it though, but the manager was cool with it.

    But sorry, that's not really helpful in your situation other than to sympathise with your situation of being accused of stealing when you didn't do it.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 7:34 PM
    • 6,432 Posts
    • 4,935 Thanks
    ohreally
    Have to say but I agree with the amount being an odd amount to steal!
    Originally posted by stuartJo1989
    We are unaware of the amount alleged stolen.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 7th Jan 18, 7:46 PM
    • 371 Posts
    • 363 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    We are unaware of the amount alleged stolen.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    OP said that it had pence in it, which would make it an odd amount to steal (as apposed to just taking 5x £20 notes)
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Jan 18, 7:51 PM
    • 4,367 Posts
    • 7,296 Thanks
    sangie595
    OP said that it had pence in it, which would make it an odd amount to steal (as apposed to just taking 5x £20 notes)
    Originally posted by stuartJo1989
    Just because someone is a thief doesn't mean they are capable of making the correct change! You can steal money and make a mistake with change. It proves nothing.
    • Lucyxx
    • By Lucyxx 7th Jan 18, 7:59 PM
    • 2,953 Posts
    • 6,713 Thanks
    Lucyxx
    Could there have been an error on the computer end of cashing up? A till not correctly reconciled the night before so it thinks there should have been more the next day? Or incorrectly on the day of the incident.

    Sometimes when we have had little errors at work it is the case of someone inputting a decimal point in the wrong place. I have made errors cashing up as our newer system asks us how many of each note we have instead of the amount, Eg, I had one £5 note in one till so should have inputted 1, but accidentally put 5 (without thinking as in my hand was a fiver!) The computer thought we had £25 in £5's and we spent ages counting and recounting and checking the counter cache incase it was stuck in there to find the missing £20 before I worked out what I had done.

    Awful to be accused of something you haven't done.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 7th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    • 37,960 Posts
    • 34,393 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    If you're taking a colleague, you can ask them to attend to take notes for you without discussing the case with them.

    Having someone to take notes for you is a very good idea ...
    Still knitting!
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    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 8:13 PM
    • 6,432 Posts
    • 4,935 Thanks
    ohreally
    If you're taking a colleague, you can ask them to attend to take notes for you without discussing the case with them.
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Terms of suspension would normally stipulate no contact with other members of staff.
    • NCC-1707
    • By NCC-1707 7th Jan 18, 9:17 PM
    • 74 Posts
    • 164 Thanks
    NCC-1707
    Terms of suspension would normally stipulate no contact with other members of staff.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    Read the OP...they've been told they can have a colleague present.
    • Xbigman
    • By Xbigman 7th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • 2,978 Posts
    • 1,230 Thanks
    Xbigman
    Doesn't an offer to take a colleague imply you can discuss things with them?


    Darren
    Xbigman's guide to a happy life.

    Eat properly
    Sleep properly
    Save some money
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Jan 18, 9:39 PM
    • 4,367 Posts
    • 7,296 Thanks
    sangie595
    Doesn't an offer to take a colleague imply you can discuss things with them?


    Darren
    Originally posted by Xbigman
    It isn't an offer. It's the law. So yes - if someone agrees to accompany you then you are allowed to discuss it wit them. But first they must agree to accompany you - and that requires you to ask via HR or the manager in charge of the disciplinary.
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