Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Monkeyjim
    • By Monkeyjim 7th Jan 18, 9:13 AM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Monkeyjim
    Is this fraud
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 9:13 AM
    Is this fraud 7th Jan 18 at 9:13 AM
    Good morning

    I just want to clarify wether this is fraudulent or not, I know of a young gentlemen who is claiming benefits and DLA. He has been "unable" to work for quite a few years. However he is still able to get up at 6am to go o a paid days beating on a local pheasant shoot- the shoot starts at 8amand finishes at 1630 - involves negotiating treacherous uphill slippery terrain and walking up to 15 miles - beating through thick vegetation and woodland- he gets paid £25 per day and this occurs up to three times per week for four months of the year - now he makes an issue that he can't go on the book as he receives DLA and also has blue badge and receives a vehicle via the mobility scheme so he gets cash in hand -so is this fraud? It's very blatant there are photos all over social media of him doing the activity? I was just curious as my wife has DLA and has to declare a change in circumstance although she can't do ahuthing for herself. Thanks
Page 2
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 7th Jan 18, 8:04 PM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    If you know for certain that he is claiming based on physical mobility issues and he is being consistently physically mobile, then this should be investigated and I see no problem with a report being made. If everything was above board, he'd have no problem going on the books. Needing it to be cash in hand suggests something isn't right.

    I only consider reporting potential fraud a problem when some curtain twitcher reports based on someone "looking all right" or doing a bit of gardening without even knowing what the person's condition is, because they feel that only someone who is bedbound or in a wheelchair should receive benefits.

    You should also report his employer for paying those disgustingly low wages.
    Last edited by Penitent; 07-01-2018 at 8:10 PM.
    • venison
    • By venison 7th Jan 18, 8:28 PM
    • 1,487 Posts
    • 1,619 Thanks
    venison
    I would remind everyone that we are here to provide help and advice about benefits, and not to discuss the merits of benefits or judge the people claiming them.
    OP if you think someone is committing fraud then only you can decide what to do next about that.
    I am a BG on loans,credit cards and benefits I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly". Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
    • trigger fish
    • By trigger fish 7th Jan 18, 9:13 PM
    • 897 Posts
    • 819 Thanks
    trigger fish
    I remember reading about a fella who got done whilst on ESA for playing golf which was deemed proof of being fit for work.

    It was his Doctor who suggested he played it to keep him supple.
    • uberalles
    • By uberalles 8th Jan 18, 6:46 AM
    • 4,085 Posts
    • 8,486 Thanks
    uberalles
    I would remind everyone that we are here to provide help and advice about benefits, and not to discuss the merits of benefits or judge the people claiming them.
    OP if you think someone is committing fraud then only you can decide what to do next about that.
    Originally posted by venison
    Could not agree more venison, however if a low life is defrauding the taxpayer and impersonating somebody in need of a Blue Badge, as the OP reads, then he needs to be reported.

    It is the fraudulent (let us not forget this), fake persons that mock the system, just as it reads he may be, that make it difficult for the genuine claimants and, I am afraid, make the non-claiming taxpayer more suspicious of all claimants.
    In other words, if we could make everybody take a decent person test, and a truth drug, we would not even be responding to this thread, the thread would not exist. A utopia I admit, but fraud is prevalent. I await some chequered individual to tell me it is less than 1%.

    Go for it Monkey. You are doing your duty. If he has nothing to hide then he should not be concerned. Plus he would therefore be keeping somebody employed, paying their taxes which in turn pay his benefits. What is there not to like about that circle of events?

    These vile, cheating persons cannot continue to defraud the rest of us. Where is their self-respect? I guess the pound holds more value than morality, even if they are robbing others. Selfish people indeed!

    However, don't expect much, I have reported my brother in law four times yet still he flaunts his ill gotten gains.
    • robotrobo
    • By robotrobo 8th Jan 18, 7:11 AM
    • 832 Posts
    • 699 Thanks
    robotrobo
    Is this fraud



    If hes on the mobility component of dla/pip , then if he qualifys for a car !, then he would have admitted that he carnt walk above 50 mtrs .
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 7:28 AM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    If there is reason to believe fraud may be being committed it is not causing trouble for no reason. The biggest question seems to be over entitlement to Blue Badge and from what the OP says I can certainly understand why they are questioning that entitlement.
    Are you suggesting that some forms of fraudulent claim are OK and some aren't? If so I love to hear the difference.
    The OP also says the person in question is 'claiming benefits and DLA'.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    How does he know unless he's actually seen the entitlement letter? Or us he just assuming?
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 7:29 AM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    Is this fraud



    If hes on the mobility component of dla/pip , then if he qualifys for a car !, then he would have admitted that he carnt walk above 50 mtrs .
    Originally posted by robotrobo
    I don't know the criteria for being eligible for a car but I do know that you can claim DLA mobility regardless of the distance you can walk. It's not restricted to physical disability.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 8th Jan 18, 8:05 AM
    • 1,904 Posts
    • 1,763 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Is this fraud



    If hes on the mobility component of dla/pip , then if he qualifys for a car !, then he would have admitted that he carnt walk above 50 mtrs .
    Originally posted by robotrobo
    That's not true. You can claim mobility part without have mobility issues.
    • thorsoak
    • By thorsoak 8th Jan 18, 8:49 AM
    • 5,526 Posts
    • 25,162 Thanks
    thorsoak
    OP - you say that the person you feel is defrauding the system has MS. My brother-in-law had MS, he could (sometimes) walk around, play with his boys, do diy, drive, etc etc - and other times he would be confined to a wheelchair. MS attacks are spasmodic - there is no way of telling when an attack might occur. He died, aged 39.

    Beating only happens during the shooting season - which lasts from the beginning of Septemer, through to the end of January. During December there may well be shoots three times a week - but early in the season, there would only be one a week, and the same in January. The beaters are not walking for the whole of that time - a "drive" will last for maybe 45 minutes, there will be a long period of picking up and the beaters are driven from one drive to the next - so although a shoot might cover 15-20 miles, the person you are querying will not be walking that amount.

    The shoot manager will of course contact your friend to work as he is not being paid at the legal minimum rate - it is the shoot that should be reported!
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 8th Jan 18, 9:37 AM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    Thank you, thorsoak, that puts things in perspective and is certainly a different picture from what the OP presents.

    However, I still think a report should be made due to the claimant's insistence on being paid cash in hand. There are only two reasons to do this: 1) you are claiming income-based benefits and don't want them to be reduced due to your income, or 2) the reason you're claiming doesn't gel with the type of work you're doing.
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 11:52 AM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    Thank you, thorsoak, that puts things in perspective and is certainly a different picture from what the OP presents.

    However, I still think a report should be made due to the claimant's insistence on being paid cash in hand. There are only two reasons to do this: 1) you are claiming income-based benefits and don't want them to be reduced due to your income, or 2) the reason you're claiming doesn't gel with the type of work you're doing.
    Originally posted by Penitent
    In this circumstance, the claimant isn't insisting on being paid cash. All beaters are paid cash, no matter what. It's often kids earning a bit of pocket money. As thorsoak points out, there isn't a lot of strenuousl work involved and certainly someone with MS (I must have missed that point originally) having a good day would be more than capable of doing this job.

    I think the OP is possibly being malicious. I go back to my previous post and ask that he/she just asks the person in question what the situation is. They don't even have to mention benefits.

    Maybe enquire how they cope with a day out beating whilst having MS. Hopefully they'll then receive an education into how illnesses such as this and fibromyalgia can affect a person's life and why they can appear more well one day than another.

    By reporting this person without the full facts will no doubt cause no end of stress which is something to absolutely be avoided with MS. It could easily cause a relapse that might be difficult to recover from. Just leave well alone.
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 8th Jan 18, 12:10 PM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    In this circumstance, the claimant isn't insisting on being paid cash. All beaters are paid cash, no matter what. It's often kids earning a bit of pocket money. As thorsoak points out, there isn't a lot of strenuousl work involved and certainly someone with MS (I must have missed that point originally) having a good day would be more than capable of doing this job.

    I think the OP is possibly being malicious. I go back to my previous post and ask that he/she just asks the person in question what the situation is. They don't even have to mention benefits.

    Maybe enquire how they cope with a day out beating whilst having MS. Hopefully they'll then receive an education into how illnesses such as this and fibromyalgia can affect a person's life and why they can appear more well one day than another.

    By reporting this person without the full facts will no doubt cause no end of stress which is something to absolutely be avoided with MS. It could easily cause a relapse that might be difficult to recover from. Just leave well alone.
    Originally posted by Feral Moon
    We can only respond based on what the OP tells us. He said:

    now he makes an issue that he can't go on the book as he receives DLA and also has blue badge and receives a vehicle via the mobility scheme so he gets cash in hand
    he was happy enough to tell the room that he couldn't be processed on the books for payment due to him being declared unfit to work as he can't walk very far or carry out independent daily living tasks
    If the claimant has genuinely said these things, then a report should be made, as he's clearly stated he doesn't want to be on the books as it conflicts with his benefits award. The comment about being him being declared unfit for work implies that he's also receiving ESA, which means he should have declared this work. If he has, then why would he have a problem with going on the books?

    I currently claim ESA and am in the process of appealing a PIP refusal. I understand how awful it would be to have a false allegation made against me. I'm only saying that if what the OP has said about the claimant is true, it should be reported.

    Obviously, if the OP is just being one of the curtain twitching types I mentioned earlier and is either making things up or is not as certain as he claims, then he should take his nose out.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 8th Jan 18, 12:55 PM
    • 16,296 Posts
    • 40,572 Thanks
    FBaby
    MS is one of those conditions that will affect people differently and at different times. Taking into consideration that PIP descriptors can be quite subjective when it comes to 'how often' and 'how severely', it isn't surprising that someone could have ticked the right boxes, covering them for three years, but then finding themselves that the drugs are actually helping so that they are able to do things they were not able to before.

    I would love to know the statistics of people reporting that 'their symptoms have improved' during their entitlement. I would be less than 1%. At best people just wait until they are reassessed and accept the verdict if they are not entitled any longer.

    Saying that, I do respect that with MS, it is difficult as you could have a relapse the moment you call to say you are better. Taking into account how long it takes to be reassessed, I expect investigating potential fraud in such cases is going to be the least of the priorities of the dwp.
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    We can only respond based on what the OP tells us. He said:





    If the claimant has genuinely said these things, then a report should be made, as he's clearly stated he doesn't want to be on the books as it conflicts with his benefits award. The comment about being him being declared unfit for work implies that he's also receiving ESA, which means he should have declared this work. If he has, then why would he have a problem with going on the books?

    I currently claim ESA and am in the process of appealing a PIP refusal. I understand how awful it would be to have a false allegation made against me. I'm only saying that if what the OP has said about the claimant is true, it should be reported.

    Obviously, if the OP is just being one of the curtain twitching types I mentioned earlier and is either making things up or is not as certain as he claims, then he should take his nose out.
    Originally posted by Penitent

    But the OP is stating the claimant doesn't want to declare this work due to claiming DLA, a motability car and blue badge. Working would affect NONE of that. None of these are exclusively for "out of work" claimants.

    However, if he's claiming ESA (the OP doesn't mention ESA) then he would need to declare this work, although it wouldn't necessarily affect his benefit as permitted work is allowable.
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 1:15 PM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    MS is one of those conditions that will affect people differently and at different times. Taking into consideration that PIP descriptors can be quite subjective when it comes to 'how often' and 'how severely', it isn't surprising that someone could have ticked the right boxes, covering them for three years, but then finding themselves that the drugs are actually helping so that they are able to do things they were not able to before.

    I would love to know the statistics of people reporting that 'their symptoms have improved' during their entitlement. I would be less than 1%. At best people just wait until they are reassessed and accept the verdict if they are not entitled any longer.

    Saying that, I do respect that with MS, it is difficult as you could have a relapse the moment you call to say you are better. Taking into account how long it takes to be reassessed, I expect investigating potential fraud in such cases is going to be the least of the priorities of the dwp.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    Exactly!!

    In the case of people suffering from such fluctuating conditions, would you be expected to phone the DWP and report that you're now feeling well enough to undertake tasks you previously claimed to be unable to do. When a week or even month or so later, you're likely to relapse and feel completely unwell again. Are you expected to have to reclaim benefits again? And then continue this yo-yo process for the rest of your life?

    What a ridiculous state of affairs to be in.
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 8th Jan 18, 1:51 PM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    But the OP is stating the claimant doesn't want to declare this work due to claiming DLA, a motability car and blue badge. Working would affect NONE of that. None of these are exclusively for "out of work" claimants.

    However, if he's claiming ESA (the OP doesn't mention ESA) then he would need to declare this work, although it wouldn't necessarily affect his benefit as permitted work is allowable.
    Originally posted by Feral Moon
    He said:

    he was happy enough to tell the room that he couldn't be processed on the books for payment due to him being declared unfit to work as he can't walk very far or carry out independent daily living tasks
    You aren't declared unfit to work for DLA because it's not an out of work benefit, so he could only be referring to ESA. So assuming he's accurately reporting what the person said, there's a problem here.

    I'm aware of permitted work, but if the person was doing permitted work and he'd cleared or was going to clear it with the DWP, why would he not want there to be an official record of him working?

    Honestly, I do understand that conditions fluctuate. I'm mentally ill. I can't work at the moment, but I've been in and out of work when I've been able.

    But if someone says "I can't have an official record of working because I'm claiming to be unfit for work", that's a pretty obvious sign that they're doing something they shouldn't be.
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 8th Jan 18, 1:58 PM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 5,059 Thanks
    Penitent
    Exactly!!

    In the case of people suffering from such fluctuating conditions, would you be expected to phone the DWP and report that you're now feeling well enough to undertake tasks you previously claimed to be unable to do. When a week or even month or so later, you're likely to relapse and feel completely unwell again. Are you expected to have to reclaim benefits again? And then continue this yo-yo process for the rest of your life?

    What a ridiculous state of affairs to be in.
    Originally posted by Feral Moon
    You just described my life. Ill (ESA), slightly better (JSA), work, iller (ESA), slightly better (JSA), work, even iller (ESA)...

    Yes, it's ridiculous, but those are the terms under which they pay my benefits.
    Last edited by Penitent; 08-01-2018 at 2:01 PM.
    • Feral Moon
    • By Feral Moon 8th Jan 18, 6:44 PM
    • 2,760 Posts
    • 4,307 Thanks
    Feral Moon
    He said:



    You aren't declared unfit to work for DLA because it's not an out of work benefit, so he could only be referring to ESA. So assuming he's accurately reporting what the person said, there's a problem here.

    I'm aware of permitted work, but if the person was doing permitted work and he'd cleared or was going to clear it with the DWP, why would he not want there to be an official record of him working?

    Honestly, I do understand that conditions fluctuate. I'm mentally ill. I can't work at the moment, but I've been in and out of work when I've been able.

    But if someone says "I can't have an official record of working because I'm claiming to be unfit for work", that's a pretty obvious sign that they're doing something they shouldn't be.
    Originally posted by Penitent

    Somehow I'd missed the OPs response in post #16 so wasn't aware of the additional information in my replies. I can see now where discrepancies might occur in his claims and why some have challenged my own responses.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

173Posts Today

1,349Users online

Martin's Twitter