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  • FIRST POST
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 8:39 AM
    • 338Posts
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    chris1012
    Federation of Master Builders (FMB) - Dispute Process an absolute Joke!
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 18, 8:39 AM
    Federation of Master Builders (FMB) - Dispute Process an absolute Joke! 6th Jan 18 at 8:39 AM
    I have a dispute with my builder who carried out some works for me late last year.
    We appointed them based on the fact they were FMB and Trust Mark registered, provided us 10years guarantee on the work via IWA and the senior surveyor (spokes man for the company) assured us that they were the best company to carry out this task especially as we had a baby due soon after the works should complete.

    The job was carried out without due care and subsequently we had issues with the shoddy workmanship and items (black and white in writing) in the contract being completely missed out e.g. a water supply to our F/F, Sash Windows.

    We raised the concerns a few times during the works going on and on the third occasion the builder walked off site.

    We then had some emails sent back and forth however was not able to come to any satisfactory agreement.
    The builder offered some refunds but were unrealistic when compared to the cost of carry out the repair and outstanding work.


    We spoke to a solicitor whom advised us there was enough grounds to go to small claims court and likely win however the builders contract stated that at any point of dispute, we would need to seek assistance from FMB at the first instance....

    We contacted the dispute team at FMB in November and had to fill out a form raising all our issues and what we wanted as an outcome.
    We sent the form to FMB and had to wait 21 days for a response (FMB simply forwarded the complaint to the builder).
    After 21 days, the builder had not responded so FMB sent a chaser to the builder who responded a few days later (once again FMB forwarded over to us).

    FMB then advised us to continue the process we had to meet the builder to discuss the issues documented or the process could not continue (FMB were not interested about the specifics of our complaint and never/refused to discuss them).

    As we had no choice, we met the builder again to go through our initial complaint and as the company owner was still being very unreasonable, we felt we did not make any progress during the meeting but he advised us he would go back and amend some of the figures and pass the new proposal via FMB...

    We had to wait another 3 weeks for a response and once we did, the new proposal offered the same refunds, as per above, and again the values were the same.
    The builder even had the cheek to retract some refunds he initially offered, advise some areas of the issues no longer existed (in the first email response we had from him he acknowledge the issues and offered refunds for it) and even add some extra jobs he thought he had carried out as an extra even though they were clearly noted in the contract!
    As we had some building companies out to quote us for the repair/outstanding work, we knew a rough figure that was realistic, which we advised the builder through FMB again.

    I then got a call yesterday from FMB advising that they felt the builder had been fair and reasonable as they carried out a meeting and offered refunds, therefore we should be happy to accept.
    I advised that none of our concerns have been discussed in any detail and no individual let alone a building company, would carry out the outstanding repairs/jobs for the refunds offered, to which they responded they cannot advise on specifics.
    We rejected the proposal from the builder and they said there was nothing more they could do and close the case!


    What a waste of 2.5months!

    The building company are TrustMark registered as well but not sure if I should go down that avenue or now go direct to Small Claims Court.

    Anyone else had any disputes with FMB registered builders and what avenues did you have to go down to get your money back!?
    Last edited by chris1012; 06-01-2018 at 9:05 AM.
Page 1
    • Furts
    • By Furts 6th Jan 18, 12:02 PM
    • 3,723 Posts
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    Furts
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:02 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:02 PM
    There are various threads about your problems going back months. What comes across is you know everything, and everybody who chips in with a reply receives no thanks. Coupled with this appears to be an obsession with detail, yet a unwillingness to accept any due diligence and any personal accountability. There has been a number of years of dismal failure with building works to your home(s). This thread is simply the latest episode ...


    I live in hope that one day the penny will drop, and you will quietly, and calmly, consider your role in what has been going on.


    You have been through some issues but remember life is not one sided. There is a concept of a builder from hell, but there are also many clients from hell. Have a think and see if both of these ring any bells with you.
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 12:41 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:41 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:41 PM
    There are various threads about your problems going back months. What comes across is you know everything, and everybody who chips in with a reply receives no thanks. Coupled with this appears to be an obsession with detail, yet a unwillingness to accept any due diligence and any personal accountability. There has been a number of years of dismal failure with building works to your home(s). This thread is simply the latest episode ...


    I live in hope that one day the penny will drop, and you will quietly, and calmly, consider your role in what has been going on.


    You have been through some issues but remember life is not one sided. There is a concept of a builder from hell, but there are also many clients from hell. Have a think and see if both of these ring any bells with you.
    Originally posted by Furts
    I think that is a very unfair comment.
    Multiple people who I have spoken to and chipped in have received a thanks and some where you think may not have, I have personally spoken to them via chat and again thanked them.

    Where there is personal accountability, I am ready to put/hold my hands up but as I have learnt from forums, every persons opinion is different and I while most think I have grounds for my complaint not all will see all in the same light unless they have gone through the whole process in person or have all facts at hand.

    I am a fussy client and hence with my last project I paid for that type of service, which is well documented to the company and on the forums, so I think it is unfair to be punished for this!
    • elsien
    • By elsien 6th Jan 18, 12:48 PM
    • 15,618 Posts
    • 39,402 Thanks
    elsien
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:48 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 18, 12:48 PM
    Parent had a dispute over the final bill with a builder who belonged to the FMB hierarchy. FMB were as much use as a chocolate teapot.
    Due to the sums involved, the builder could have gone to small claims but chose to take it to high court instead which would have involved barristers, that he knew parent couldn't afford. There was some compromise to get the final sum down (no issues with quality of work, just costs) but parent still felt ripped off.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 6th Jan 18, 1:01 PM
    • 3,723 Posts
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    Furts
    • #5
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:01 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:01 PM
    I accept your view, and will not trawl back through threads and posts. My memory, which may well be wrong, is this ...by your own admission you are "a fussy client". This means you will have set out your stall to meet these requirements. Yet to this day nobody is aware of what due diligence you did with researching, visiting previous jobs, seeking references and then appointing your contractor(s).


    This will be followed by written specifications. Plus details of what standards, and what quality, was required and how this would be benchmarked.


    Next would come your management and quality control procedures, with site inspection and how this was linked into the payments regime.


    All this is a typical procedure by a fussy client. I have no problem with any of this, I can work with it and I can empathise with it. Indeed it is all a known concept and procedure within the construction industry. But I have a niggling doubt, As a fussy client I am wondering what you did to meet all these requirements.


    Clearly you have not convinced the FMB, nor have you won them over. Likewise with your builder. This suggests there is something wrong with your total innocence type approach.


    By all means go after Trustmark, but what are you hoping to achieve by doing so? Court is the logical route but my intuition is this is a lost cause. But it is a lost cause because of the tactics you have adopted, and your role in all of the saga.
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 1:21 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    • #6
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:21 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:21 PM
    I accept your view, and will not trawl back through threads and posts. My memory, which may well be wrong, is this ...by your own admission you are "a fussy client". This means you will have set out your stall to meet these requirements. Yet to this day nobody is aware of what due diligence you did with researching, visiting previous jobs, seeking references and then appointing your contractor(s).


    This will be followed by written specifications. Plus details of what standards, and what quality, was required and how this would be benchmarked.


    Next would come your management and quality control procedures, with site inspection and how this was linked into the payments regime.


    All this is a typical procedure by a fussy client. I have no problem with any of this, I can work with it and I can empathise with it. Indeed it is all a known concept and procedure within the construction industry. But I have a niggling doubt, As a fussy client I am wondering what you did to meet all these requirements.


    Clearly you have not convinced the FMB, nor have you won them over. Likewise with your builder. This suggests there is something wrong with your total innocence type approach.


    By all means go after Trustmark, but what are you hoping to achieve by doing so? Court is the logical route but my intuition is this is a lost cause. But it is a lost cause because of the tactics you have adopted, and your role in all of the saga.
    Originally posted by Furts
    So from a due diligence point of view - I initially only shortlisted companies that had FMB/TrustMark stamps and from the list I got a quote from around 8 of them.
    The company we went with had a senior surveyor with many years in the trade and through multiple conversations and additions of our quotes, formed a very comprehensive contract.
    It was far more detailed then any other contract we had received - an example from the contract:
    New Floor & Floor Insulation
    Supply and install suspended concrete flooring system comprising of 155mm deep beams, to include 1500Kg/m3 solid infill blocks set between beams. Supply and install 1200 gauge polythene DPM lapped with perimeter DPC and 80mm Celotex insulation lain to suit whilst incorporating a 500 gauge polyethene vapour control barrier as required. The new 70mm floor screed consisting of 1:4 cement/sand screed laid to comply with best practice conforming with BS8204: Part 1, Appendix B.

    I spent a lot of time in discussing with the senior surveyor about our previous bad experiences and how this would be a refreshing experience and all would run with the highest care and attention.
    I even remember apologising for being very fussy and cautious and his response was 'You can be as fussy and as cautious as you want. Our experience is perfect for what you need for this type of experience/project'.

    We looked at 2 jobs of this building company and was provided 4 references that we checked by emailing the clients as well (although none of the jobs were a rebuild job as such').

    With regards FMB - Honestly speaking, we had no conversions about specifics of the complaint at all nor what was being offered.
    Literally it was a case of the following -
    1. Send complaint
    2. I have to meet the building company owner to proceed further
    3. He is offering refunds - do you accept or not?

    There was nothing else discussed or advised by FMB. Surely Mediation requires some sort of process of reason, middle ground etc
    None of this was every discussed at any stage.

    Maybe my methods of explaining things on a forum are not the best but I have had a solicitor read through this and as the builder accepted liability of faults, he feels there are good grounds for success in court...
    • Furts
    • By Furts 6th Jan 18, 1:49 PM
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    Furts
    • #7
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:49 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Jan 18, 1:49 PM
    Look back and accept facts - you have been through all the cowboy builder type saga before so this time round the procedure was to be as simple as it ever is ... In a nutshell

    you commission the architect
    you apply, and receive, a Full Plans Building Regulations Application
    you write up the Specification before this
    you appoint a Clerk Of Works ... and then go for tenders..

    You have a signed contract with the builder,
    you have a programme
    you have stage payments to avoid front loading and you link these to quality
    you liaise and make sure everything is ticking along fine

    It does appear you checked out the contractor, but pity those wasting time pricing against seven others - be realistic here, and ask why other consumers should be footing the bill for these overheads.

    Also pity the chosen contractor for having to compensate for your inability to draw up a Specification.

    Then be savvy. If you are not in control of this Specification - and you are not because you did not write it - then how do you expect it meet your requirements?

    Ultimately things have turned out second time round to be as disastrous as first time around. Yet you fail to learn from your misfortune, and you fail to see all your mistakes!

    Best of luck in Court
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 6th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    • 24,208 Posts
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    Doozergirl
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    I had a full blown conversation with you in one thread where I went to quite some effort and didnít receive one thank you, nor did we have a private conversation.

    The FMB have changed the way they deal with disputes and it has been considerably diluted, but they always employed a third party to address disputes anyway. It was just that the builders half of the fee was covered by an insurance policy included in the price of membership. That policy is no longer in place. Hence your experience.

    I have been involved in a dispute with a Ďfussyí (read completely obtuse) client. It was fairly easy to see where we were going when our plumber had literally got out of his van and the complete stranger of a client said he didnít want him!

    We had a completely independent surveyor appointed to us and were able to submit 10 pages each of testimony. I think I wrote 7 (after speaking directly to the surveyor about what was professional to write about some of the bahaviour my staff had been subjected to and being advised to write everything) and then included all the quotes, invoices and contract on top. The client then threw a hissy fit at the surveyor because Iíd submitted more pages than I should. I hadnít, the contractual items have to be separate, of course or Iíd have been over limit with just those. The client submitted hundreds of photos to minor detail that the point that the surveyor didnít feel the need to come to site.

    The upshot was that the surveyor found no defects; we needed to pay the client for some outstanding rendering which we were well aware of, but we were thrown off site and Iíd had to issue small claims to get paid our last invoice and went for the whole amount. We owed £400. The surveyor was covered by insurance.

    The client had to pay £450 to the surveyor and still had to pay someone to finish the job. (We would have actually done a lot more than the surveyor requested just to finish off the ďgoodwillĒ jobs but he deemed that they werenít included). Thatís karma right there.

    I also call it research as they were our second ever paying client (bearing in mind weíd been developing for over a decade with oursleves as clients) and we learned very quickly that:
    a) just because someone wants you to do the work, you donít have to.
    b) As above, vet your clients as much as you can! Gut instinct goes quite a long way. Iíd advise all clients to do the same - pick someone you genuinely like because things do slow down, go wrong and building work is stressful and dirty even when it runs smoothly.
    c) Value your work. If you donít put a value on it, customers certainly wonít appreciate it. A HUGE proportion of people expect something for nothing - top quality at bargain prices. Itís all about price.
    d) Below those are indeed cowboy clients who will take you for everything they can get.

    On another job I learned *never* to work under an architect as project manager.

    Since then, itís all been pretty good. I would never quote for a job against 7 other builders. Iíd not have quoted you. In fact, I probably wouldnít against 2 builders.

    Anyway, thereís a nice story for you.

    A lot of your issues seem to boil down to the use (or not) of a caulking gun. Iím sure that many donít, but I can see a misunderstanding over a small number of windows that would be hard to miss in an overall price with other people quoting too.
    Iíd pick your battles, certainly.

    After all my waffling, I do think that an independent surveyor is a good thing as it puts true value on work outstanding. Itís a big shame that the FMB changed what they did. Both parties felt more secure, I think.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 06-01-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 6th Jan 18, 5:10 PM
    • 1,579 Posts
    • 3,696 Thanks
    Jackmydad
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 5:10 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 5:10 PM
    Eight quotes!
    If I'd been the builder. I'd have walked away.
    I always asked how many were quoting for a job.
    And I've simply not quoted for a few jobs. Sent a letter saying I was unable to provide a quote at this time.
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 5:52 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    Look back and accept facts - you have been through all the cowboy builder type saga before so this time round the procedure was to be as simple as it ever is ... In a nutshell

    you commission the architect
    you apply, and receive, a Full Plans Building Regulations Application
    you write up the Specification before this
    you appoint a Clerk Of Works ... and then go for tenders..

    You have a signed contract with the builder,
    you have a programme
    you have stage payments to avoid front loading and you link these to quality
    you liaise and make sure everything is ticking along fine

    It does appear you checked out the contractor, but pity those wasting time pricing against seven others - be realistic here, and ask why other consumers should be footing the bill for these overheads.

    Also pity the chosen contractor for having to compensate for your inability to draw up a Specification.

    Then be savvy. If you are not in control of this Specification - and you are not because you did not write it - then how do you expect it meet your requirements?

    Ultimately things have turned out second time round to be as disastrous as first time around. Yet you fail to learn from your misfortune, and you fail to see all your mistakes!

    Best of luck in Court
    Originally posted by Furts
    Commission an Architect?
    Building Regs?

    This was not required as we weren't doing an any construction work/remodelling unless we have been misinformed?
    Out of all the quotes we got, none of them mentioned about building regs or architect plans.

    We live in London and there are many cow boy builders and the reason why we had to go through so many was some of the companies that came out, even though FMB registered, has no references to show us or their quote was half a page long or they didn't have a real plan to investigate/resolve the rodent and foul smell issue.
    Out of the 7, only 3 really gave us an actual cost and the others where doing guess work.

    I admit when we first got our work done, we did not do much research but and went simply on local recommendations however this time we thought we done the right thing.

    Even with this company we appointed I had to ask for a schedule of payments as none existed and one was provided they had none for snagging and then I had to request for one...

    If you speak to most in our area, they will all agree it is very difficult to find reputable and consistent builders and most will not know the process correctly.
    My new neighbours who just moved in realised that they had no building regs upon completion of their renovation project and even they found the task daunting with many unknown areas they entered into.

    The company didn't entirely build our specification, rather we sent him our requirements with additions and he put it in a form of a detailed quote.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 6th Jan 18, 6:16 PM
    • 24,208 Posts
    • 67,010 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    You asked people to investigate for a problem but then quote at the same time to fix it?

    Thatís delusional. Youíre asking people to take on all the risk of a problem that belongs to you.

    Iíve got it with a PWS right now who expects a method statement from us and drawings from our SE when we donít know whatís under the ground. I could give them something categorical but then that compromises my integrity. Weíve written again asking to dig and investigate, then commit.

    Itís the same thing. How can someone quote to fix what they donít know and how can you have clear specification?

    That was passing the buck. Again, Iíd refuse to quote because it smells like a cowboy client who will then throw a tantrum when the work costs more than the poor idiot who did quote could have anticipated.

    I have a site manager. He is brilliant at what he does, but he cannot run his own business because he canít quote correctly and massively underestimates. When he does take a job on he falls out with the client but theyíre getting great work for the wrong price. Everyone ends up bitter and no doubt the client feels theyíre being ripped off but we had to physically lend him money to finish the last job he did for someone. He project managed a job and took responsibilty for the lot for less than his employed day rate. It doesnít make him a bad builder.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 06-01-2018 at 6:22 PM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 6:27 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    You asked people to investigate for a problem but then quote at the same time to fix it?

    That’s delusional. You’re asking people to take on all the risk of a problem that belongs to you.

    I’ve got it with a PWS right now who expects a method statement from us and drawings from our SE when we don’t know what’s under the ground. I could give them something categorical but then that compromises my integrity. We’ve written again asking to dig and investigate, then commit.

    It’s the same thing. How can someone quote to fix what they don’t know and how can you have clear specification?

    That was passing the buck. Again, I’d refuse to quote because it smells like a cowboy client who will then throw a tantrum when the work costs more than the poor idiot who did quote could have anticipated.

    I have a site manager. He is brilliant at what he does, but he cannot run his own business because he can’t quote correctly and massively underestimates. When he does take a job on he falls out with the client but they’re getting great work for the wrong price. Everyone ends up bitter and no doubt the client feels they’re being ripped off but we had to physically lend him money to finish the last job he did for someone. He project managed a job and took responsibilty for the lot for less than his employed day rate. It doesn’t make him a bad builder.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    When we had quotes we always asked for a worse case scenario which would be to do the whole floor again and redo the drains.

    The issue was an uncapped drain under the paryt wall, which the neighbours builders didn't cap when they had their extension built.
    Last edited by chris1012; 06-01-2018 at 6:53 PM.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 6th Jan 18, 6:39 PM
    • 891 Posts
    • 653 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    OP have you ever been happy with any work you’ve had done?
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 6:52 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    OP have you ever been happy with any work youíve had done?
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    Kitchen fitters were great and so was our landscapers
    • Furts
    • By Furts 6th Jan 18, 7:53 PM
    • 3,723 Posts
    • 2,350 Thanks
    Furts
    Kitchen fitters were great and so was our landscapers
    Originally posted by chris1012
    The court will determine if you are trustworthy, genuine and honest. Honesty is a concept of telling the truth. Only last November you were complaining on this forum about the extract formed for your kitchen re-fit. But now you say the kitchen fitters were "great". Not a good way to follow in Court.

    Add this to the ongoing contributions to answer your thread and, as ever, folks are not a lot wiser on what really happened. Not a good way to follow in Court.

    Add this to the uncapped drain which should have been part of your pre contract investigations, or a contingency, or subject to a drain survey, or picked up by your site inspection regime - all of course your responsibility, but you appear still unwilling to man up to this.

    Add this to your own admission that you never prepared a Specification, nor engaged an Architect, nor applied for Buildings Regulations, nor had a payments schedule. You might next be telling the Forum you did not have a contract, nor a programme, nor a Clerk of Works and not even a Chartered Building Surveyor on board ....?

    All round a huge mistake has been made, and this was the builder ever agreeing to get involved with you. Expecting them to price against seven others (ridiculous), then engage with you (because you could not be bothered to undertake your responsibilities), then prepare detailed Specifications (your job) and detailed payment regimes (your job), is taking the peewee.

    Fortunately justice may prevail. If matters get to Court and the builder is as good as the FMB and Trustmark hints at then they will run circles around you. You will then be exposed, the Judge will reprimand you, (since you appear unwilling to listen to anybody else), and hopefully you will think carefully in future before taking on the role of client from hell.
    Last edited by Furts; 06-01-2018 at 7:56 PM.
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 6th Jan 18, 8:07 PM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    The court will determine if you are trustworthy, genuine and honest. Honesty is a concept of telling the truth. Only last November you were complaining on this forum about the extract formed for your kitchen re-fit. But now you say the kitchen fitters were "great". Not a good way to follow in Court.

    Add this to the ongoing contributions to answer your thread and, as ever, folks are not a lot wiser on what really happened. Not a good way to follow in Court.

    Add this to the uncapped drain which should have been part of your pre contract investigations, or a contingency, or subject to a drain survey, or picked up by your site inspection regime - all of course your responsibility, but you appear still unwilling to man up to this.

    Add this to your own admission that you never prepared a Specification, nor engaged an Architect, nor applied for Buildings Regulations, nor had a payments schedule. You might next be telling the Forum you did not have a contract, nor a programme, nor a Clerk of Works and not even a Chartered Building Surveyor on board ....?

    All round a huge mistake has been made, and this was the builder ever agreeing to get involved with you. Expecting them to price against seven others (ridiculous), then engage with you (because you could not be bothered to undertake your responsibilities), then prepare detailed Specifications (your job) and detailed payment regimes (your job), is taking the peewee.

    Fortunately justice may prevail. If matters get to Court and the builder is as good as the FMB and Trustmark hints at then they will run circles around you. You will then be exposed, the Judge will reprimand you, (since you appear unwilling to listen to anybody else), and hopefully you will think carefully in future before taking on the role of client from hell.
    Originally posted by Furts
    I had an issue with the worktop fitters that damaged the surface using an angle grinder but the kitchen fitters themselves were fantastic.
    We had an issue with a boxing they made for our extractor but that was not a major issue and we resolved matters with that in the end but not once does that reflect on the overall job they did!

    With regards to the drain - We had camera surveys completed (twice) and multiple plumbers in to help investigate.
    I also had pictures of progress of works during the first renovation, which was all made available to the builders provided quotes at the time, including this builder.

    As mentioned before, we did not need an architect no building firm has ever said we needed one and I just looked at the councils website and for what we carried out no building regs are required as well, so not sure why this is being brought up or relevant!

    It is amazing how you have interpreted it completely different than others have but then again this is a forum and you have your right to your own opinion
    • ComicGeek
    • By ComicGeek 6th Jan 18, 8:15 PM
    • 263 Posts
    • 208 Thanks
    ComicGeek
    New Floor & Floor Insulation
    Supply and install suspended concrete flooring system comprising of 155mm deep beams, to include 1500Kg/m3 solid infill blocks set between beams. Supply and install 1200 gauge polythene DPM lapped with perimeter DPC and 80mm Celotex insulation lain to suit whilst incorporating a 500 gauge polyethene vapour control barrier as required. The new 70mm floor screed consisting of 1:4 cement/sand screed laid to comply with best practice conforming with BS8204: Part 1, Appendix B.
    Originally posted by chris1012
    Building Regs?

    This was not required as we weren't doing an any construction work/remodelling unless we have been misinformed?
    Out of all the quotes we got, none of them mentioned about building regs or architect plans.
    You installed a new structural floor, you need to have Building Regs approval. It wasn't mentioned by the builders as it's your responsibility not theirs - might sound harsh, but that's the reality.

    Who specified 80mm Celotex for the floor and what was actually installed? Did someone do a U-value calculation to determine compliance under Part L1B of the Building Regulations? I'm sure there could be similar questions for each line of their proposed specification, which is the problem when the builder is dictating the specification.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 7th Jan 18, 8:11 AM
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    Furts

    As mentioned before, we did not need an architect no building firm has ever said we needed one and I just looked at the councils website and for what we carried out no building regs are required as well, so not sure why this is being brought up or relevant!
    Originally posted by chris1012
    ComicGeek is spot on - you need to be asking serious questions about your role in all this. But also consider this ... you might be proud of drawing up the Specification for the block and beam floor but you had no design, and no Structural Engineer - at least so far there has been no mention of these. Then look at the flaws and illegality of what was written. What was under the floor - services? damp material? radon? methane?

    It is common for block and beam to be laid on Hyload dpc (no mention of this), for the infill to be Aircrete (you have dense concrete) , for dpc to be sealed (laps are not satisfactory), and your 80mm Celotex is woeful. Coupled to this is under floor ventilation and air bricks (not mentioned). All this is a blatant failure of good practice sanctioned by you!

    But then you had no inspection of this design, nor inspection of the work in progress, which means you have no evidence that anything was done correctly.

    Then consider the drain - where was your Structural Engineeer? Re - routing and blocking drainage is an area coming into The Buildings Regulations. Where were you under the PWA?

    Then consider your kitchen re-fit ... new wiring under Part P of the Buildings Regulations, ventilation, and extract rates, new drainage, perhaps a new boiler, new floor membranes, possible structural wall alterations, perhaps new windows fitted (yes because you are disputing this and I do not recall what your attitude was to your legal duties here under the Buildings Regulations) ... all Buildings Regulations matters so you get the idea.

    You are a fussy client by your admission. This is disingenuous because in reality you are somebody evading professional guidance (and fees), evading agreed building procedures laid down over generations, and entering willingly the shady area of cowboy builders. This is dangerous territory and you got your fingers burnt. Some people including me, would say there is a rough justice here.

    Yet you profess innocence!
    • chris1012
    • By chris1012 7th Jan 18, 9:18 AM
    • 338 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    chris1012
    ComicGeek is spot on - you need to be asking serious questions about your role in all this. But also consider this ... you might be proud of drawing up the Specification for the block and beam floor but you had no design, and no Structural Engineer - at least so far there has been no mention of these. Then look at the flaws and illegality of what was written. What was under the floor - services? damp material? radon? methane?

    It is common for block and beam to be laid on Hyload dpc (no mention of this), for the infill to be Aircrete (you have dense concrete) , for dpc to be sealed (laps are not satisfactory), and your 80mm Celotex is woeful. Coupled to this is under floor ventilation and air bricks (not mentioned). All this is a blatant failure of good practice sanctioned by you!

    But then you had no inspection of this design, nor inspection of the work in progress, which means you have no evidence that anything was done correctly.

    Then consider the drain - where was your Structural Engineeer? Re - routing and blocking drainage is an area coming into The Buildings Regulations. Where were you under the PWA?

    Then consider your kitchen re-fit ... new wiring under Part P of the Buildings Regulations, ventilation, and extract rates, new drainage, perhaps a new boiler, new floor membranes, possible structural wall alterations, perhaps new windows fitted (yes because you are disputing this and I do not recall what your attitude was to your legal duties here under the Buildings Regulations) ... all Buildings Regulations matters so you get the idea.

    You are a fussy client by your admission. This is disingenuous because in reality you are somebody evading professional guidance (and fees), evading agreed building procedures laid down over generations, and entering willingly the shady area of cowboy builders. This is dangerous territory and you got your fingers burnt. Some people including me, would say there is a rough justice here.

    Yet you profess innocence!
    Originally posted by Furts
    Fair point if that is the genuine guidelines.
    When we spoke to builders about the job, we mentioned previously we had building regs and not one of them mentioned we would require them again.
    It is my fault for not looking into it further but I just find it bizarre that no company ever mentioned we needed it again for the works we just had it, even if it is my own responsibility.

    Last time round the issue with our building regs was that the builder knew the BI very well and therefore signed off things without really look in depth, which we explained to the builders that came to look at/quote for the job...

    I could have protected myself better by researching and looking into things in far more detail but I like most of the people I have spoken to simply just appointed a company to carry out the works and assumed they would walk us through where required.
    My neighbours on my street have all done the same think, I do not think it is unrealistic to say that most do not have a clue and put a lot of their trust in the appointed building firm to guide/assist when it comes to things like Building regs, electrics gas etc

    Just so you are aware, there was mention in the contract regarding air bricks, Part P and Gas certs etc...
    • Furts
    • By Furts 7th Jan 18, 11:51 AM
    • 3,723 Posts
    • 2,350 Thanks
    Furts
    We are back to the topics of honesty, of being genuine and not misleading folks. You say no builders mentioned the Regulations and you knew nothing about this. Yet you had a previous renovation/building job and you were well aware of your obligations then. So why not this time ...?

    Then you wrote the Specification in conjunction with the builder and now admit it referred to Part P, and gas testing ... so you were aware of Buildings Regulations matters this time round.

    The fact that you wrote this is is meaningless because you sought no Regulations. I accept you may have followed the self certification route but as in so many areas of your issues, folks do not know what happened.

    The more you write the more I worry about your chances in Court. I am even wondering if your next confession will be you paid cash ...?

    Be very careful, and remember the builder could contact your Local Authority and push to get you prosecuted for evading the Regulations. Of course, unlikely because the folks have better things to do. But your situation is rife in London and it only takes one Official to say "enough, let us have a case to send a warning out regarding all the illegal work which consumers are colluding with."

    The FMB are not fools - you are not happy with the recent outcome but the FMB will have you weighed up.

    Perhaps you can now see why my earlier post warned you about going to Court. You could end up being exposed over all this.

    Over and out since you dislike what I say, and offer no thanks. But give me a little credit. My view may be different to that of others and it is clearly different to what you want to hear. But that does not make it wrong. Even your comment about my take on block and beam floors is laughable. Is my knowledge "genuine" you have suggested. My intuition is I can run circles round you when it comes to knowledge of building!

    I am sure you are a lovely human being, but I am others in the construction industry would prefer to pick who we work with. Some folks are best avoided!
    Last edited by Furts; 07-01-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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