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  • FIRST POST
    • AustraliaNow
    • By AustraliaNow 6th Jan 18, 3:25 AM
    • 2Posts
    • 0Thanks
    AustraliaNow
    Problem Tenants
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 18, 3:25 AM
    Problem Tenants 6th Jan 18 at 3:25 AM
    Hi Everyone
    We recently asked some tenants to leave a rental property at the end of their tenancy. They had never been great tenants - they blocked the toiled with nappies and refused to pay for the unblocking even though the contractor confirmed it was them that had done it and they were often late with rent etc. We live overseas so not having seen the property recently it transpired at checkout that they had removed fitted wardrobes, broken windows, done extensive unauthorised painting in pinks/purples and generally left a mess when they departed. They refused to pay their last month's rent saying that we should take it out of the deposit which we refused to do. We have recently initiated a claim using money claim online and they have counterclaimed. They are claiming for carpets which they fitted, again without authorisation having removed our carpets (which were newly fitted in 2014). It is not clear from the money claim online website how we respond to this. I have emailed money claim online to ask for advice but the automatic response says that it could take 10-15 days. Can anybody please advise.

    Many thanks
    Joanne
Page 1
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 6th Jan 18, 9:16 AM
    • 11,321 Posts
    • 15,927 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:16 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:16 AM
    Hi Everyone
    We recently asked some tenants to leave a rental property at the end of their tenancy. They had never been great tenants - they blocked the toiled with nappies and refused to pay for the unblocking even though the contractor confirmed it was them that had done it and they were often late with rent etc. We live overseas so not having seen the property recently it transpired at checkout that they had removed fitted wardrobes, broken windows, done extensive unauthorised painting in pinks/purples and generally left a mess when they departed. They refused to pay their last month's rent saying that we should take it out of the deposit which we refused to do. We have recently initiated a claim using money claim online and they have counterclaimed. They are claiming for carpets which they fitted, again without authorisation having removed our carpets (which were newly fitted in 2014). It is not clear from the money claim online website how we respond to this. I have emailed money claim online to ask for advice but the automatic response says that it could take 10-15 days. Can anybody please advise.

    Many thanks
    Joanne
    Originally posted by AustraliaNow
    If the tenants wanted to keep the carpets then they should have removed them when they vacated the property along with all their other stuff. Have you read the MCOL User Guide?

    Do you have someone managing the property for you since you are overseas? Do you supply your tenants with an address in England or Wales for the serving of notices?
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 6th Jan 18, 9:20 AM
    • 19,135 Posts
    • 14,820 Thanks
    agrinnall
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:20 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:20 AM
    How do you intend to present your case when it goes to court and you are stil overseas? Unless you plan to return either specifically at that time or for a longer period anyway then I think you should consider whether it's worth pursuing any further (and also whether you are cut out to be a landlord at all).
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 6th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    • 9,224 Posts
    • 12,242 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:36 AM
    Sounds rather more like problem landlord.

    Have you been declaring ALL the rent paid to UK HMRC tax-man, please?

    Surprised tenants left, they did not have to (were not legally required to, were under no legal obligation to depart)

    Artful: Landlord
    • Mickygg
    • By Mickygg 6th Jan 18, 9:59 AM
    • 1,358 Posts
    • 1,079 Thanks
    Mickygg
    • #5
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:59 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Jan 18, 9:59 AM
    There lies your problem. You should have inspected the property regularly.

    You've emailed. i know its so last century but have you tried dialling the number on the website?
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 6th Jan 18, 10:17 AM
    • 352 Posts
    • 369 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #6
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:17 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:17 AM
    Sounds rather more like problem landlord.

    Have you been declaring ALL the rent paid to UK HMRC tax-man, please?!
    Bit harsh. They have asked for advice on how to pursue a claim. Why assume they don't declare their income? Not every landlord commits fraud.

    Also the tenants shouldn't have made changes to the property if their contract states they need permission. That they have doesn't mean the landlord is a "problem landlord" probably the opposite and that they have been far to relaxed about things until now. A big, expensive lesson learnt.
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 6th Jan 18, 10:21 AM
    • 513 Posts
    • 581 Thanks
    ProDave
    • #7
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:21 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:21 AM
    Sounds rather more like problem landlord.

    Have you been declaring ALL the rent paid to UK HMRC tax-man, please?

    Surprised tenants left, they did not have to (were not legally required to, were under no legal obligation to depart)

    Artful: Landlord
    Originally posted by theartfullodger
    This forum is full of landlord bashers. Why?

    It sounds like the landlord supplied a property in good repair. The tenants painted it in hideous colours so it will need repaining, ripped out built in wardrobes that will need repairing and broke some windows. And their final act was not to pay the last months rent.

    Yes that all to me sounds like the "fault" of a bad Landlord. NOT.

    Lets hope at the very minimum the landlord gets to keep the entire deposit which will go a little way to paying for the repairs the bad tenant has caused.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 6th Jan 18, 10:43 AM
    • 9,224 Posts
    • 12,242 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:43 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:43 AM
    This forum is full of landlord bashers. Why?

    It sounds like the landlord supplied a property in good repair. The tenants painted it in hideous colours so it will need repaining, ripped out built in wardrobes that will need repairing and broke some windows. And their final act was not to pay the last months rent.

    Yes that all to me sounds like the "fault" of a bad Landlord. NOT.

    Lets hope at the very minimum the landlord gets to keep the entire deposit which will go a little way to paying for the repairs the bad tenant has caused.
    Originally posted by ProDave
    Thank you for your kind comments, Dave. Do we take it then that you are a landlord also?

    I am a landlord: Since 2000.

    I dislike bad landlords (there are some), bad MPs (quite a few..)... and will happily go into bat against the rogue landlords who make life harder for decent landlords (I make no claims regarding my status in that spectrum).

    Best wishes to all decent people everywhere
    • tom9980
    • By tom9980 6th Jan 18, 10:53 AM
    • 1,237 Posts
    • 3,708 Thanks
    tom9980
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:53 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jan 18, 10:53 AM
    Mcol respond to email quickly I have had a response in 24 hours just before Christmas.
    “In order to change, we must be sick and tired of being sick and tired.”
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 6th Jan 18, 11:00 AM
    • 513 Posts
    • 581 Thanks
    ProDave
    Thank you for your kind comments, Dave. Do we take it then that you are a landlord also?

    I am a landlord: Since 2000.

    I dislike bad landlords (there are some), bad MPs (quite a few..)... and will happily go into bat against the rogue landlords who make life harder for decent landlords (I make no claims regarding my status in that spectrum).

    Best wishes to all decent people everywhere
    Originally posted by theartfullodger
    Yes I am a landlord.

    Previously we had a house and a flat both let out. We sold those a few years ago, (and paid the CGT due for all those who think LL's are tax evaders). That money is financing the build of a new house for us.

    We could not find a buyer for our old house so that is now let, so after a short break I am a landlord again.

    We have had exemplary tenants and lousy tenants. The last one in the rental house we used to own did lots of damage like broken toilet, holes in the plasterboard, put his foot (or something) through the bathroom ceiling etc. We got to keep the deposit on that one but only after photographing the damage to prove to the holding company the damage was real. The returned deposit paid about 50% of the repair cost, the rest we had to pay.

    People forget Landlords are real people providing needed service and in return hope to make a modest return on their investment. I cannot understand why this forum seem so champion tenants who trash the place or refuse to pay their rent.
    • dekaspace
    • By dekaspace 6th Jan 18, 11:06 AM
    • 3,796 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    dekaspace
    Yes I am a landlord.

    Previously we had a house and a flat both let out. We sold those a few years ago, (and paid the CGT due for all those who think LL's are tax evaders). That money is financing the build of a new house for us.

    We could not find a buyer for our old house so that is now let, so after a short break I am a landlord again.

    We have had exemplary tenants and lousy tenants. The last one in the rental house we used to own did lots of damage like broken toilet, holes in the plasterboard, put his foot (or something) through the bathroom ceiling etc. We got to keep the deposit on that one but only after photographing the damage to prove to the holding company the damage was real. The returned deposit paid about 50% of the repair cost, the rest we had to pay.

    People forget Landlords are real people providing needed service and in return hope to make a modest return on their investment. I cannot understand why this forum seem so champion tenants who trash the place or refuse to pay their rent.
    Originally posted by ProDave
    They don't. its more they challenge everything that can easily not be clear cut as in pretty much anything.

    I had a landlord who did a bodge job putting in a second hand kitchen that the cupboard doors kept falling off and they said well the doors came off my hand therefore its my fault, had home made built in wardrobe doors of plywood that snapped in half the first time I used it, well they said LL was justified in taking that from my deposit, I spent about 30 hours cleaning flat inc using carpet shampoo and LL claimed it was dirty I said I did best I could but it wasn't perfect they said LL was justified as I admitted it wasnt perfect This is all despite having multiple leaks in the roof which LL blamed me for, next door tenant who was with same LL being a drug dealer with carpet physically black, who had a dog go to toilet on carpet, smashed kitchen the LL said he was a better tenant as he always paid on time and never complaied (that was the point, he was happy to live in squalor, LL knew he was a dealer hence how he had wads of £20s in his pocket at all times)

    Many responses on here were to side with the landlord, if I did 20 things not perfect and LL 100 things people justified the LLs actions by the 20 things even if they were small petty things and the 100 LL ones extreme.

    Im careful how I word things now.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 6th Jan 18, 11:18 AM
    • 16,285 Posts
    • 40,552 Thanks
    FBaby
    I dislike bad landlords (there are some),
    I think this should say 'I dislike any landlords who don't bend backwards to make the life of their tenants like staying in a hotel and forgive all tenants who behave badly because the law allows them too.

    This thread is a perfect example. No indication at all that the LL has acted badly, much to indicate that the tenants have done so, yet you post to assume that the LL has been acting wrongly and that the tenant did them a favour by doing what they SHOULD be doing, even if they law grants them the right not to.
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 6th Jan 18, 11:37 AM
    • 9,224 Posts
    • 12,242 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    ....We could not find a buyer for our old house so that is now let, so after a short break I am a landlord again....
    Originally posted by ProDave
    ...with the greatest respect it's always possible to find a buyer, but perhaps not at the price one wants/expects: Bought & sold 20+ properties so far, had to drop over £100k on one...

    ...we have had exemplary tenants and lousy tenants. The last one in the rental house we used to own did lots of damage like broken toilet, holes in the plasterboard, put his foot (or something) through the bathroom ceiling etc. We got to keep the deposit on that one but only after photographing the damage to prove to the holding company the damage was real. The returned deposit paid about 50% of the repair cost, the rest we had to pay.....
    .. with respect you did not have to pay, you had the option of suing your tenant through the courts: Did you?

    Slàinte mhath!

    NB: Likewise, I've had excellent tenants and other ones: Concluded the other ones were usually down, in my experience, to my inexpert tenant selection process...
    Last edited by theartfullodger; 06-01-2018 at 11:42 AM.
    • dekaspace
    • By dekaspace 6th Jan 18, 11:56 AM
    • 3,796 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    dekaspace
    I think this should say 'I dislike any landlords who don't bend backwards to make the life of their tenants like staying in a hotel and forgive all tenants who behave badly because the law allows them too.

    This thread is a perfect example. No indication at all that the LL has acted badly, much to indicate that the tenants have done so, yet you post to assume that the LL has been acting wrongly and that the tenant did them a favour by doing what they SHOULD be doing, even if they law grants them the right not to.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    The problem with the law, is when it is enforced its more about who can shout the loudest, like what I said in my previous post I scrub properties when I moved out so its at least as good as when I moved in, and in cases where it was a pigsty when I moved in made it far better and only once (a place with no deposit) was I given my deposit back the others always claimed the place was disgustingly dirty, that one above stating I never once cleaned in 3 years despite receipts that showed I hired a rugdoctor, spent about £35 on cleaning materials and had photos of it clean, the property before that I was charged £120 for a tiny studio flat because they found a few crumbs in corner of cupboard, and I forgot to clean a baking tray that cost £1 (it was mine and I forgot to pack it) they even had the cheek to charge me £12 for rubber gloves and cleaning materials on top, again had photos of it spotless but was advised by Shelter its hard to take to court and easier to just take the hit, was before the deposit schemes came in sadly though.

    Property before that, landlord kept entering my studio flat and opening letters, going through drawers and opening letters, messaged me saying my flat was a tip (I left a plate and pan in soak when I went to the shops) and he would fine me if I did it again. I mopped and hoovered every day.

    Funniest though was when I was in halls and got a phone call saying cleaners refused to clean it, I had left a empty can of cola on the side (but hoovered bedroom before I left) was told to go back and clean it, got keys went into room, picked up the can and put it in bin outside, and handed keys back, was told cleaners had no problems then.

    But the general response to that was by me admitting I left a single can it means I wasn't spotless, (even though I polished the sides, hoovered the floors, dusted the walls etc)

    These days I have gotten to point of thinking why even bother, I spend hours or days cleaning when I move only to be accused of not cleaning at all.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 6th Jan 18, 12:28 PM
    • 42,718 Posts
    • 49,915 Thanks
    G_M
    From the description you give, it appears you have a strong case.

    Of course, the tenant, if posting here, might provide different information or slant it differently - there are always 2 sides to every story.

    Their counter-claim appears to be a weak attempt to deflect responsibility, but we would need the full facts of both your claim and the counter claim to be sure.

    However you have a serious issue being overseas. you cannot pursue this claim without either
    * returning to the UK for a court hearing or
    * granting someone a Power of Atorney to represent you at the hearing - and that person would need the full facts

    Moneyclaim will not provide legal advice. They will only advise on the process. And the process is already explained in their guides, so if/when they email you back you will learn nothing that you cannot learn now by reading upon the process.

    https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/PDFForms/money-claim-online-user-guide.pdf

    https://www.gov.uk/respond-to-court-claim-for-money
    Last edited by G_M; 06-01-2018 at 12:32 PM.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 6th Jan 18, 2:11 PM
    • 16,285 Posts
    • 40,552 Thanks
    FBaby
    Like most LLs, I take on my responsibility fully and don't see it as just a way to make money (which as it is isn't turning to be so, but heho, can still hope it will in the future!).

    The way some LLs behave is appalling, and I would never defend the actions of a bad LL just because there are a LL.

    However, the law is very punitive of LLs even those who do no harm, but just happen to make errors of court, ie. through learning, even though the outcome of that learning is unlikely to make much of a difference to the tenant.

    I just find it plain sickening that the law, tht was put in place to protect tenants, is more and more often used as a mean to punish LLs, even those who've done no wrong. Advising freely that tenants can take a LL to court for 3 times their deposit even when they got the full amount back just because it was protected a few days late -because they just can, or that tenants can just stay after the S21 has expired -just because they can is doing nothing but encouraging a society that will take whatever they can regardless of the morals.

    Of course, they are the same people who then come and cry when they suffer the consequences, ie. can't get another property because of bad references, or council doesn't care much for them because they know they will be difficult tenants.

    So my advice is, as a tenant, pick your LL too. If you see a property that rents for cheap, accept that there is most likely a good reasons for it. Ask to meet the LL if possible and get a feel of whether they are professional or consider their property as their own home. If the house is in poor condition when visiting, it is likely that asking for any repairs will be problematic. We all look for a good deal, but when it comes to your home, don't try to cut corners and be prepared to put the price for good quality accommodation and service.

    Then sign up for only 6 months to start with so that if your judgement let you down, you can get out soon enough. Include in your budget a sum every month to cover costs of having to move, advance another deposit etc... (just like LL have to budget for repairs, cost of lack of rental etc...). If you are unfortunately to be given notice, start looking for something else asap and do move as per your contractual arrangement unless you REALLY cannot do so, in that case, communicate with your LL and explain what you've done to move out on the date and what has gone wrong.

    Much much more likely to have a positive outcome all around then taking the attitude of 'you'll be lucky if I move on that day because you're a scum LL and I know my rights, and that is that I can stay as long as I want and will get some sadistic pleasure in seeing you going through the stress of taking me to court and losing out financially'.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 2:19 PM
    • 16,054 Posts
    • 14,343 Thanks
    AdrianC
    You're abroad - so I presume you had an agent managing the property. Why aren't they dealing with this?
    • dekaspace
    • By dekaspace 6th Jan 18, 2:33 PM
    • 3,796 Posts
    • 3,215 Thanks
    dekaspace
    I mostly agree, almost every landlord I have had has rented "cheap" at least in the sense that its not overpriced but at a going rate for the area, and the properties that have good repuation and much nicer condition go for a premium.

    I only once had a good agency myself, I had to leave a month early though and told them to keep my deposit, but the main issue people have is references and being on low income, I had issues when I first left home finding somewhere that took me when I left college, ended up with dodgy landlord, moved back home for 18 months, then got a place I lived for 3 years dirt cheap, no real issues there but LL refused to give me a reference, moved somewhere that didn't need a reference amazing flat, but my income changed so went for a 2 bedroom flat that was only £20 more per week, severe damp in it due to leaking roof, enviromental health got involved after we still had no repairs 6 months in and said if it got worse it would be a health risk, LL spun that to say EH said it was fine then for involving them tried illegally evicting us and we had to get police involved, found somewhere instantly but flatmate couldn't afford deposit on new place and came back a week later to find locks changed (and whilst in there other issues like there was human fluids and bodily waste in every room that took days to clear and LL promised to pay us to do it then changed his mind)

    New place, illegally evicted as LL claimed I owed rent when in fact he owed me (due to council paying 6 days at start of tenancy before it began)

    Moved to a nice place but student accomodation, moved out after one of flatmates ran up debts in our name and I left course, moved another place lived there 3 months but landlord kept not turning up to collect rent, didn't answer phones, didn't have payment details on contract and would turn up at random shouting and screaming at me for being a dosser and expect paid be it midnight at night or 6am, he changed locks on me for 2 weeks but wanted rent for those 2 weeks, and eventually illegally evicted me then cheekily told me I owed him rent when I had a pc, tv, and about £1000 in possessions in there.

    Moved somewhere else, all was fine when I lived there apart from person in room downstairs having party and LL getting complaints from neighbours and telling me if it continues he would (illegally of course) evict us and keep our deposit, never got it back as he refused to release it without proof utilities had been paid

    Lived in about 5 other properties since then, almost identical issues at each, always comes down to their word against yours and me making sure I photo every property when I move in and leave many times it was a case of holding a tenant to ransom because they knew you were on benefits even told to my face how I should be greatful to get anywhere to live because I was on benefits and they were doing me a favour, had one up the rent and claim I owed 8 months of arrears and pay or else I did even though I disputed it then was told by paying I admitted it which wiped out my savings only could move a few months later as I got backdated ESA.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 6th Jan 18, 3:24 PM
    • 15,461 Posts
    • 21,147 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    Perhaps ADMIN could remove all the rude, judgemental and bickering posts from this thread?

    (And then the OP might come back and answer questions and get further help).

    This is a forum for help and advice. Plenty of other forums for judgemental "never made a mistake in my life" types. ( Try Mumsnet???)
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
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