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  • FIRST POST
    • Keto Plastics
    • By Keto Plastics 5th Jan 18, 11:15 AM
    • 38Posts
    • 9Thanks
    Keto Plastics
    Landlord selling / sold house need some legal advice
    • #1
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:15 AM
    Landlord selling / sold house need some legal advice 5th Jan 18 at 11:15 AM
    Hi All

    Need some advice as been informed today via phone call that the Landlord has sold the house and wants Me to move out in two months time because the new owners want possession (the estate agent said they are sending out the paperwork tomorrow, section 21 I assume)

    What I need to know is what My legal rights are under the circumstances
    Keto-Plastics
Page 1
    • m0bov
    • By m0bov 5th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • 1,178 Posts
    • 793 Thanks
    m0bov
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    Is your deposit protected? What sort of contract are you on? Do you have a UK address for the purpose of serving notice?

    Check all the dates and the S21 is valid when you get it, then start looking for a new home.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Jan 18, 11:24 AM
    • 1,797 Posts
    • 1,632 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:24 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:24 AM
    Hi All

    Need some advice as been informed today via phone call that the Landlord has sold the house and wants Me to move out in two months time because the new owners want possession (the estate agent said they are sending out the paperwork tomorrow, section 21 I assume)

    What I need to know is what My legal rights are under the circumstances
    Originally posted by Keto Plastics
    The short answer is you are not obliged to move out.


    m0bov's questions will help to indicate the length of time eviction would take, but certainly more than 2 months is guaranteed (E&W avg is 40 weeks total)


    The best position is to negotiate a surrender where the LL will cover moving costs.
    • Keto Plastics
    • By Keto Plastics 5th Jan 18, 11:29 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Keto Plastics
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:29 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:29 AM
    Yes deposit is protected but they will not give that back until after moved out and they want proof that all bills are paid for the property before they will release it (no matter what the condition of house is in)

    Used to be on a 6 month AST, now it is a rolling contract
    The address they want Me to move out of is the only address I have

    What would invalidate a section 21 ?
    Cannot start looking for a new home as all the money I have is tied up (in deposit) and been used up in this current property (fitted new kitchen with LL's consent not long back thinking I was staying here)
    Keto-Plastics
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
    • 1,797 Posts
    • 1,632 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:30 AM
    Yes deposit is protected but they will not give that back until after moved out and they want proof that all bills are paid for the property before they will release it (no matter what the condition of house is in) - No obligation to provide this.

    Used to be on a 6 month AST, now it is a rolling contract
    The address they want Me to move out of is the only address I have

    What would invalidate a section 21 ?
    Cannot start looking for a new home as all the money I have is tied up (in deposit) and been used up in this current property (fitted new kitchen with LL's consent not long back thinking I was staying here)
    Originally posted by Keto Plastics


    fitting a new kitchen was very silly.
    • aneary
    • By aneary 5th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 866 Posts
    • 792 Thanks
    aneary
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • #6
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Used to be on a 6 month AST, now it is a rolling contract
    (fitted new kitchen with LL's consent not long back thinking I was staying here)
    Originally posted by Keto Plastics
    You fitted a new kitchen whilst on a rolling contract are you wise.
    • Keto Plastics
    • By Keto Plastics 5th Jan 18, 11:45 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Keto Plastics
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:45 AM
    • #7
    • 5th Jan 18, 11:45 AM
    When moved into the property it desperately needed it as there had been / was rats (which I had to get rid of) at the property and the kitchen cupboards was unusable just opening them up left You feeling sick by the smell (and that was after using pure bleach on them )

    And yes in hindsight it was not wise but as I said not much choice
    Keto-Plastics
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 5th Jan 18, 12:26 PM
    • 1,038 Posts
    • 694 Thanks
    saajan_12
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 12:26 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 12:26 PM
    If/when you receive the Section 21 notice, check its valid. The big things seem fine (deposit protected, not served in first 4 months) so it would only be if theres a typo / issue with dates. The notice should be served 2 CALENDAR months before expiry.

    You don't HAVE to leave by the expiry date, in fact you have until the landlord gets a possession order from the court, waits for the possession date and then gets bailiffs to physically remove you. However
    a. You will have to move eventually, incurring new tenancy fees etc
    b. All the court & bailiff costs can be passed on to the tenant
    c. You'll have even less notice of the precise leaving date if waiting for bailiffs, so think of costs of removals, rent overlap, time off work to move..

    Instead, I'd try to save up as much as possible now, and see if you can find a new property in the next two months with minimal fees e.g. where the landlord deals directly. Speak to the current landlord to see if you can mutually agree a surrender date to give you minimal overlap, avoid court costs etc.
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 5th Jan 18, 12:59 PM
    • 1,493 Posts
    • 2,995 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    • #9
    • 5th Jan 18, 12:59 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Jan 18, 12:59 PM
    Just out of interest, were you present for the viewings?
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • Keto Plastics
    • By Keto Plastics 5th Jan 18, 1:19 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Keto Plastics
    Yes I was

    I was told there was 1 viewing set for a specific day and when that day came there was a load of people outside the house knocking on the door / ringing the bell etc
    They arranged for more than one viewing to take place at the same time
    People walking around all over the house unsupervised by the agent
    I was not impressed or happy about it
    • G_M
    • By G_M 5th Jan 18, 1:27 PM
    • 42,761 Posts
    • 49,979 Thanks
    G_M
    OK - there are a multitude of reasons why a S21 may not be valid. So check it carefully against this questionaire:

    S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)

    If it IS valid, you still don't have tto leave after it expires. It does not end your tenancy. It simply allows the landlord to apply to a court to end the tenancy, which can take several weeks/months (though you may end up paying those court costs).

    The landlord would be unwise to exchange contracts on his sale until you have left, as he cannot guarantee when you will leave so cannot guarantee giving his buyer vacant possession.
    Last edited by G_M; 05-01-2018 at 1:30 PM.
    • Out, Vile Jelly
    • By Out, Vile Jelly 5th Jan 18, 1:32 PM
    • 3,748 Posts
    • 12,619 Thanks
    Out, Vile Jelly
    What do you actually want- time to save up for a deposit to enable you to move? If the LL really wants to sell, you're going to have to move at some point.

    Next time don't move into a property with a decrepit kitchen, inform Environmental Health if there are rats, and don't spend your own money on decor or fittings.
    They are an EYESORES!!!!
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 5th Jan 18, 1:37 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 762 Thanks
    Slithery
    How much is your LL willing to pay you to move out in 2 months?

    As already mentioned even if the S21 is valid you don't have to leave, the LL will have to take you to court to evict which takes about 10 months (thus scuppering the sale). I'd at least ask for the deposit back now plus any moving costs.
    • gingercordial
    • By gingercordial 5th Jan 18, 1:52 PM
    • 1,051 Posts
    • 1,057 Thanks
    gingercordial
    You are in a certain position of power here as the landlord will not want the sale to fall through, and if he is selling to people who are buying to live there they must have vacant possession on exchange or it will not happen.

    As others have said, him giving a valid s.21 notice ensures two months before he can even start the long-winded process of going to court to end your tenancy.

    You therefore have something he wants: you can leave or not leave.

    If I were you, I would agree I would leave by a specified date if given:

    - A glowing reference in order to move into a new place;
    - My deposit returned in full, no deductions, right now to enable me to use it to move into a new place;
    - [Up to you] the sum of £xxx to assist with moving expenses and overlap rent (in your mind you could consider this reimbursement for the kitchen, so ask for however much you want and see what they negotiate with you).

    I would tell them that the above would enable me to move out so that they can grant vacant possession to the new purchasers to prevent the sale falling through. I would also remind them that without my agreement an eviction could take a very long time indeed...
    • trevormax
    • By trevormax 5th Jan 18, 2:16 PM
    • 849 Posts
    • 856 Thanks
    trevormax
    You are in a certain position of power here as the landlord will not want the sale to fall through, and if he is selling to people who are buying to live there they must have vacant possession on exchange or it will not happen.

    As others have said, him giving a valid s.21 notice ensures two months before he can even start the long-winded process of going to court to end your tenancy.

    You therefore have something he wants: you can leave or not leave.

    If I were you, I would agree I would leave by a specified date if given:

    - A glowing reference in order to move into a new place;
    - My deposit returned in full, no deductions, right now to enable me to use it to move into a new place;
    - [Up to you] the sum of £xxx to assist with moving expenses and overlap rent (in your mind you could consider this reimbursement for the kitchen, so ask for however much you want and see what they negotiate with you).

    I would tell them that the above would enable me to move out so that they can grant vacant possession to the new purchasers to prevent the sale falling through. I would also remind them that without my agreement an eviction could take a very long time indeed...
    Originally posted by gingercordial
    I agree with the above post, with an addition.

    Whomever has decided to buy the house, has made that choice based on the nice new kitchen you have pait for and installed at your cost. If the LL decides not to agree to your requests, I would do the following:

    - refuse to leave after 2 months.
    - refuse to let anyone else in to the house, such as the buyers surveyor or even the buyer them selves. If they do turn up, tell them they will not be getting the house in 2 months, maybe not for 5 or 6 months. Change the locks a.s.a.p.
    - Uninstall the kitchen and put the cheapest, crappest old kitchen in. Make sure it is of the same quality as the one that was there when you moved in. Maybe find some way to let the buyer know that the kitchen they are getting is nowhere near what they saw when they bought the house. They will probably try to renegotiate with the LL.

    Make sure the LL knows this is his fault and you are always willing to discuss compensation for getting you to move without fuss.
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 5th Jan 18, 3:55 PM
    • 827 Posts
    • 1,464 Thanks
    Arklight
    I agree with the above post, with an addition.

    Whomever has decided to buy the house, has made that choice based on the nice new kitchen you have pait for and installed at your cost. If the LL decides not to agree to your requests, I would do the following:

    - refuse to leave after 2 months.
    - refuse to let anyone else in to the house, such as the buyers surveyor or even the buyer them selves. If they do turn up, tell them they will not be getting the house in 2 months, maybe not for 5 or 6 months. Change the locks a.s.a.p.
    - Uninstall the kitchen and put the cheapest, crappest old kitchen in. Make sure it is of the same quality as the one that was there when you moved in. Maybe find some way to let the buyer know that the kitchen they are getting is nowhere near what they saw when they bought the house. They will probably try to renegotiate with the LL.

    Make sure the LL knows this is his fault and you are always willing to discuss compensation for getting you to move without fuss.
    Originally posted by trevormax

    I would second this. No way should you leave the kitchen in situ. The fact that he told you you could stay, then arranged viewings and accepted an offer on a house with a new kitchen you'd paid for is beyond taking the mickey.


    You could argue that the verbal agreement that you'd pay for a new kitchen in return for a longer tenure constitutes a contract which is now broken, and just tear the kitchen out without replacing it.
    • m0bov
    • By m0bov 5th Jan 18, 4:06 PM
    • 1,178 Posts
    • 793 Thanks
    m0bov
    If you don't have an address to which to serve notice then you might be able to withhold rent. You could tell the LL you will be staying until eviction unless he will return your deposit in full up front.
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 5th Jan 18, 4:15 PM
    • 522 Posts
    • 592 Thanks
    ProDave
    The LL owns the house and is selling it so it needs to be vacant.

    He is serving the correct notice period for a S21 termination.

    Start looking for somewhere else NOW.

    Anyone suggesting you don't move out is suggesting you become a criminal. No wonder landlords get a bad name if people regularly advise tenants to ignore the law and become squatters.
    • Out, Vile Jelly
    • By Out, Vile Jelly 5th Jan 18, 4:21 PM
    • 3,748 Posts
    • 12,619 Thanks
    Out, Vile Jelly
    The LL owns the house and is selling it so it needs to be vacant.

    He is serving the correct notice period for a S21 termination.

    Start looking for somewhere else NOW.

    Anyone suggesting you don't move out is suggesting you become a criminal. No wonder landlords get a bad name if people regularly advise tenants to ignore the law and become squatters.
    Originally posted by ProDave
    They would not become criminals or squatters until after a court had ended the tenancy: .http://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/security_of_tenure/secure_tenancies/ending_a_secure_tenancy/overview_of_ending_a_secure_tenancy

    It's not ideal to have to go to court, unless the OP is willing to forfeit a reference in order to win time to save up for moving costs.

    The LL is trying to have their cake and gobble it whilst selling the hosue with a tenant in situ, knowing they've paid to upgrade the kitchen; a sensible compromise can hopefully be reached.
    They are an EYESORES!!!!
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 5th Jan 18, 4:25 PM
    • 9,233 Posts
    • 12,253 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    The LL owns the house and is selling it so it needs to be vacant....
    Originally posted by ProDave
    No: A landlord can of course sell the place but that does not end tenancy nor require tenant to leave nor require vacant possession. Even if new owner is outside with huge removal van, 3 bonkers kids & a screaming hubbie....

    Vacant possession is NOT required: I purchased a tenanted house (4 tenants) in 2006, they of course stayed, no issues...
    ...He is serving the correct notice period for a S21 termination....
    Without seeing the s21 notice, checking dates and validity we don't know it is correct, do we?
    ...
    ...Start looking for somewhere else NOW....
    Agreed: Eventually even the most stupid old owner/new owner will find a way to (legally, legitimately) evict....
    ....
    Anyone suggesting you don't move out is suggesting you become a criminal. ...
    Piffle: What crime do you assert would be committed, please?...£25 to an agreed housing charity if you can find a relevant crime
    ....No wonder landlords get a bad name if people regularly advise tenants to ignore the law and become squatters.
    OP would not be a squatter, afaik nobody is suggesting ignoring the law.

    btw I am a landlord.
    Last edited by theartfullodger; 05-01-2018 at 4:28 PM.
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