Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Chris1a
    • By Chris1a 18th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Chris1a
    Help please! My small claims hearing against UKPC is in around 20 days...
    • #1
    • 18th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    Help please! My small claims hearing against UKPC is in around 20 days... 18th Dec 17 at 8:47 PM
    Hi all,

    I successfully set aside a ccj that UKPC have recently sent to my old address 3 years after we moved to my current address, with the tickets relating to when we were living there back in 2010-2014. The parking was on our own doorstep & the whole estate were fed up with the excessive ticketing of residents. We lived in a house with only 1 bay and shared visitors bays, plus we paid a management company who brought them in a year or 2 after we moved there. I do have yearly statements that I can provide as evidence if they'll be useful? I'm not sure if I need to submit anything 14 days before or at all, or can I just bring more evidence on the day?? Do I take as much as possible, or am I more likely to win if just keep it simple??? Perhaps I could provide my insurance from back then to show I was not necessarily driving, although I may have been the keeper at the time. Another thing to take in to account is that I have a feeling scs law will turn up to court, as they have sent me a lot of photos, even 1 or 2 of them where the vehicle was parked near a sign in the background. In total they have a stack of offences they are trying to claim for. My wife had loads of letters too for her car, but luckily they gave up on those.

    I understand that I may be able to win just based on the below, as I haven't received any correspondence since I moved house, until after the ccj appeared on my credit warning.

    My initial statement is pasted below & I would really appreciate questions, advice & anything anyone can do to help me here.

    -----


    I am *** and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This my supporting Statement in support of my application dated 1*/11/2017 to:
    1. Set aside the Default Judgment dated 2*th October 2017 as it was not properly served at my current address.
    2. Order for the original claim to be dismissed.
    3. Obtain a refund for any loss of earnings and costs incurred due to this case.

    1. Default Judgement
    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in October 2017. However, this claim form has not been served at my current address and I thus was not aware of the Default Judgement until **/11/2017 when my credit report warned me of a change. I understand that this Claim was served at an old address (***). However, I moved to a new address in June 2014. In support of this I can provide my driver’s license showing my updated details.

    1.2. I have also never received any previous documentation from the Claimant in this matter and I thus was never able to challenge the Claimant’s claim.

    1.3. On the **/11/2017 I contacted Northampton County Court to find out details of the Default Judgement. The court papers contain no details of the alleged incident and I do not know what the Default Judgement relates to.

    1.4. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendant’s correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.5. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant’s current address when bringing the claim.

    1.6. Considering the above I was unable to defend this claim. I thus believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.

    2. Order dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no merit and should thus be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for “Parking Charge Notices” which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.


    2.2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, and used those details to make a claim for a “Parking Charge Notice’’, I thus dispute the claim in its entirety as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.


    2.3. If the Claimant can evidence that the alleged incident relates to a vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Otherwise, the Claimant is required to prove the driver of the vehicle they claim was involved in the alleged incident. I submit that the Claimant cannot provide such evidence and further submit that the Claimant does not include ‘Protection of Freedoms Act 2012’ wording on the Parking Charge Notices they issue and therefore cannot hold the Defendant automatically liable for the alleged incident merely for being the Registered Keeper of a vehicle.

    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. Since I have not received any documentation from the Claimant prior to finding out about the Default Judgement, I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5. I further submit that the Claimant’s claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:
    2.5.1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the private land in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.
    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that any loss to the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) would be at most a few pounds.
    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    2.5.4. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to UKPC Ltd.
    2.6. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.
    2.7. In order to make informed decisions and statements in my defence as keeper of the vehicle in question, I will require copies of all paperwork and pictures of all signs from the Claimant.

    3. I attach a copy of my driver’s license to support my case as evidence of my current address and that I changed this back in August 2015 as per the date shown on the license (4a.). Please take this in to account when refunding me for the cost of this set aside and any other financial losses I may have incurred.

    Statement of Truth:
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true

    ---

    Thanks in advance for your speedy responses :-)
    Last edited by Chris1a; 18-12-2017 at 10:08 PM.
Page 1
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 18th Dec 17, 9:58 PM
    • 2,192 Posts
    • 6,333 Thanks
    bargepole
    • #2
    • 18th Dec 17, 9:58 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Dec 17, 9:58 PM
    Back to the drawing board, I'm afraid.

    I don't know where you found that defence template, but it's completely irrelevant and inappropriate for your situation.

    Google 'primacy of contract' and find recent threads relating to residential parking.

    The terms of your lease are the key argument here. And get rid of all that nonsense about POFA; in this situation you are far better off saying that you were the driver, and parked the car in accordance with the terms of your lease.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 30. Lost 9.
    • Chris1a
    • By Chris1a 18th Dec 17, 10:24 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Chris1a
    • #3
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:24 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:24 PM
    Oops, that was a really !!!! statement to start with. What a numpty I am for copying & pasting with poor editing there!

    I will take your advice onboard bargepole, thanks for that. If I do admit to being the driver, I have a letter that may be useful but I can't see where to attach it? What about the statements where it shows me paying the company paying ukpc, are they good evidence to submit as well?

    Thanks again,

    Chris
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 18th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    • 2,192 Posts
    • 6,333 Thanks
    bargepole
    • #4
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    You don't 'submit evidence' with a Defence.

    That comes much later at the Witness Statement stage.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 30. Lost 9.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Dec 17, 10:39 PM
    • 17,160 Posts
    • 21,440 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:39 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Dec 17, 10:39 PM
    I strongly suggest that you read the BARGEPOLE timeline of events link in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, post #2

    also read up on other defences etc as well, same post, it deals with everything court related
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Dec 17, 11:06 PM
    • 52,853 Posts
    • 66,373 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 18th Dec 17, 11:06 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Dec 17, 11:06 PM
    I am confused. You said:

    I successfully set aside a ccj that UKPC have recently sent to my old address
    So you've already achieved the set aside, and this is the actual case hearing coming soon, because UKPC have decided to proceed? If so, you have copied a set aside WS but surely you've done that bit?


    I do have yearly statements that I can provide as evidence if they'll be useful? I'm not sure if I need to submit anything 14 days before or at all, or can I just bring more evidence on the day??
    You can't bring evidence to spring on them on the day.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Chris1a
    • By Chris1a 19th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Chris1a
    • #7
    • 19th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Dec 17, 12:12 PM
    Thanks for your responses all.

    @Redx, I will give that a read later today I have a lot of reading to do as it is, having done a fair amount. It is all so confusing.

    @Courpon-mad, thanks for clarifying that I can't just bring evidence on the day. Although I understand there could potentially be a second hearing after this one if the judge can't make a decision based on what has already been brought to the table. You are right that I have done the set aside and submitted a WS along with that, but surely I can & should now write to the court where the hearing is taking place with further evidence & a letter with an updated defence; asking for them to ignore certain points (or all of) the previous defence that I sent in the WS, also taking in to account more relevant and useful information/considerations that I have?

    I have come across this case: parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/ukpc-lose-residential-case-charge-not.htm & mine is very similar...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Dec 17, 7:23 PM
    • 52,853 Posts
    • 66,373 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 19th Dec 17, 7:23 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Dec 17, 7:23 PM
    You can't submit an 'updated' defence, but if the PPC proceed further with the case AFTER it is set aside, then you will be able to defend the claim as it will be almost back to square one.

    So what you are saying is, you haven't 'successfully' got it set aside (yet)?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Chris1a
    • By Chris1a 19th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Chris1a
    • #9
    • 19th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Dec 17, 10:34 PM
    Ok. So it turns out I haven't actually successfully set aside the ccj yet, thank you for pointing that out Coupon-mad! The letter from court clearly just refers the case to my local court for a hearing, although I paid the fee to set aside, it isn't/wasn't that simple! I am beginning to understand more about where I have gone wrong in the initial defence now & I feel really stupid for copying that template without editing it more bespokely, also for not having more than one person proof read it. It looks like I have a lot more reading to do before the hearing if I am going to stand a good chance of winning the case against ukpc. I'm so tempted just to pay the money, but will not give up that easy. I will find a reason why I don't legally owe them any money & they can pay me back for the time and stress of dealing with those parking tickets!

    I think I know what to do and what to say now, so please bare with me whilst I investigate options further and prepare for battle...

    Thanks a million for helping me out here everyone
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Dec 17, 10:43 PM
    • 1,540 Posts
    • 1,690 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Ok so as you will have found out, you need:
    1) a draft order ie what you want the court to rule. Set aside the judgement of x date, pay set aside cost of £255 within 14 days of the set aside hearing, at least
    2) a reason why the set aside should be granted. You REALLY need to present this well. You will have, by now, found examples elsewhere . Ideally you want the failure of service result, as this is an AUTOMATIC set aside.
    3) if you don’t get an automatic set aside you need a defence, one side of a4, to show you have a good chance of success at any hearing. That’s what you really really have to work on, and as southpaw TOLD YOU on pepipoo, you need. Good ws as your defence was awful.
    • Chris1a
    • By Chris1a 11th Jan 18, 5:21 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Chris1a
    Although I am still suffering from a fair amount of stress over this, thanks to the set aside being verbally accepted at the hearing, I am reasonably happy for now.

    I will probably be sharing a copy of my updated statement (that I submitted during the court hearing) soon, once I have edited that to exclude personal details. It is looking much much better now, with primacy of contact and POFA being my main arguments against their claim.

    I just shared some other interesting updates on forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117634, but will treat this forum as my main chat channel when I do have more to discuss.

    Having just received the dvla records in relation to when they checked details I believe that is now a vital piece of evidence in my favour, but that is not all and I am not yet finished putting together any other all important facts, figures and documents that will be sent on for consideration during the next hearing.

    Once I have received another response from SCS Law, before I submit my finalised statement I am likely to be seeking professional representation. If you are proven to be successful at representing others like me in the past and you are interested in winning this one, please do let me know how we go about agreeing costs and any other necessary arrangements I should be considering.

    I believe it is only fair that I make a decent counter claim now, after all the time and money I have spent defending myself here.

    Bullet points, questions, exciting news and more to come, in good time.

    Thanks for listening :-)

    Any questions you have are always welcome and assistance much appreciated.

    Best Wishes,

    MR L....
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Jan 18, 5:32 PM
    • 5,127 Posts
    • 3,593 Thanks
    KeithP
    Once I have received another response from SCS Law, before I submit my finalised statement I am likely to be seeking professional representation. If you are proven to be successful at representing others like me in the past and you are interested in winning this one, please do let me know how we go about agreeing costs and any other necessary arrangements I should be considering.
    Originally posted by Chris1a
    Be very careful with how you deal with any Private Messages you may now receive.

    Keep in mind that others may not have the same goal as you.

    It is well know that the private parking companies trawl these forums.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 11th Jan 18, 5:37 PM
    • 1,540 Posts
    • 1,690 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Also, as told on pepipoo - a counter claim is for something such as harassment, DPA breach etc. It is NOTHING to do with the time spent taken to defend the claim. Those are costs. See cpr27.14(2)(g) for how to “unlock” additional costs.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jan 18, 5:38 PM
    • 16,343 Posts
    • 25,429 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I just shared some other interesting updates on forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117634
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117634
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,403Posts Today

8,384Users online

Martin's Twitter