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  • FIRST POST
    • fu1996
    • By fu1996 17th Dec 17, 10:03 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 3Thanks
    fu1996
    Unfair Gladstones Letter Before Claim
    • #1
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:03 PM
    Unfair Gladstones Letter Before Claim 17th Dec 17 at 10:03 PM
    Hey guys,

    So about 8 months back I moved in to my new place to which i paid for 2 parking bays rent per month + obviously the apartments rent but the estate agents which I rented from screwed me over and didnt give me the permit or neither the fobs for the parking bay for more than 3 weeks (so for 3 weeks I had no way of getting inside the underground parking).

    So for the three weeks I just parked outside the front entrance where I was not blocking no one from coming in or out but only to offload and load my things from the old place to my new place. During this time the PCM people came and gave me two parking fines even though they knew I was just loading and offloading and parked for maybe 30mins, they even knew the only reason i was parking there was because i didnt have the fob to access my PAID parking space.

    Now i have received the Letter before claims thing from gladstones and thinking whether I should just pay the 320£ or if I actually have a leg to stand on in court as I just believe its completely unfair that I got these tickets eventhough I have paid. I even have payment invoices and proof that I sent to the estate agency as proof if needed in court but is this legally something that I can stand up with?

    Thank you for your time.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Dec 17, 10:07 PM
    • 17,145 Posts
    • 21,421 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:07 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:07 PM
    of course you can fight back and argue it in court

    as GLADRAGS have sent you an LBC , read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, check if it complies with the new PaP that came in on 01 oct 2017 and in any case draft an LBC rebuttal based on the daniel san template and send it to gladrags with a free certificate of posting from the PO Counter (not "signed for")

    whatever they do it is likely that gladrags will issue an MCOL in the near future, so be prepared by reading all recent gladrags court case threads and also that post #2 several times so you are ready for them

    my opinion ? fight it out in court and only pay if a judge tells you to pay, and pay whatever the judgment says within 1 month , if you lost in court

    if you win in court , claim back costs etc and make them pay
    Last edited by Redx; 17-12-2017 at 11:33 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Dec 17, 10:10 PM
    • 52,824 Posts
    • 66,337 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:10 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:10 PM
    Now i have received the Letter before claims thing from gladstones and thinking whether I should just pay the £320
    No. Posters here win 99% of the time when defending these claims.


    or if I actually have a leg to stand on in court
    Yes, you do, read Jopson v HomeGuard, download it here:

    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/213077149-Loading-and-Unloading-Jopson-v-Homeguard-2016-

    I just believe its completely unfair that I got these tickets eventhough I have paid. I even have payment invoices and proof that I sent to the estate agency as proof if needed in court but is this legally something that I can stand up with?
    Yes, we agree.

    Read the NEWBIES thread post #2 about replying to a LBC from Gladstones, and to see some examples from recent weeks, search the forum for 'Gladstones not immune pre-action protocol'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fu1996
    • By fu1996 17th Dec 17, 10:17 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    fu1996
    • #4
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:17 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:17 PM
    Thank you guys for your reply I really appreciate it and going to see how I can fight against this with the information you just provided. Really means alot! Will update if I need any help
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Dec 17, 10:29 PM
    • 52,824 Posts
    • 66,337 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:29 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Dec 17, 10:29 PM
    You will need help, show us your draft reply to the LBC.

    Then at claim stage (inevitable) you will need more help to comment on your draft defence, and then later too, before the hearing when you put together your WS and evidence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 18th Dec 17, 12:03 AM
    • 774 Posts
    • 1,456 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #6
    • 18th Dec 17, 12:03 AM
    • #6
    • 18th Dec 17, 12:03 AM
    +1 Coupon. This needs a robust letter of response, telling them that the proposed claim is without merit. I would, of course, refer them to Jopson.

    Since the Claimant is supposed to set out details of the claim (this goes beyond the mere information in the ticket) do make sure they give you details of not just the signage but also request the contract they have with the managing agent. It is most unlikely to restrict or prevent lawful deliveries, loading and unloading.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    Your home is at risk if you don't meet mortgage payments or other loans secured on it
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 18th Dec 17, 3:32 PM
    • 1,876 Posts
    • 3,048 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    • #7
    • 18th Dec 17, 3:32 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Dec 17, 3:32 PM
    I also think your landlord has some answering to do here.
    The estate agent acts on his behalf so he is liable for their actions.
    He will have paid them a lot of money to manage/let out his property and they have been negligent in not giving you access to the spaces you had rented. As a result, you were forced to do what you did and are now being sued for quite a lot of money.
    You rented those spaces. You paid for them. The landlord (via the estate agents) failed to give you access to them. He therefore broke the terms of the tenancy contract and you have suffered loss as a result.
    the landlord (or really the estate agents) should be seeing this off for you.


    On the other hand, it doesn't do much for good l/l-tenant relations to argue with him over this.


    But as well as defending, I'd write to the landlord, copy to estate agent, to explain what's happened and to say that you will look to him to recover any losses you suffer. It may be that if he is a valuable client, and if he gives them a good boll***ing, the estate agent may step in and do the right thing.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • fu1996
    • By fu1996 4th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    fu1996
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 8:06 PM
    Hey guys, thought i would just write a response using the daniel sans template, only really changed the bit about cases of Jopsons area, nothing else. Is there anything else I need to do before sending it off to them?

    Thanks

    -------------

    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace
    High Leigh Park Golf Club
    Warrington
    Cheshire
    WA16 6AA

    4th January 2018

    Your Ref: XXXXXXX

    Dear Sirs,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of XXXXXXX
    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.!

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.!

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action!
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.!
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”
    8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the case of Loading and Unloading: Jopson v Homeguard [2016]

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Yours faithfully
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jan 18, 11:08 PM
    • 52,824 Posts
    • 66,337 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 11:08 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 11:08 PM
    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the case of Loading and Unloading: Jopson v Homeguard [2016]
    If you are going to say that at this stage, shouldn't it be:

    I remind you that the driver was not blocking any access and was merely unloading possessions from the old flat to the new residence. Regardless of whether or not your client provides me with this information, I put you on notice that I will be relying on the case of Jopson v Homeguard [2016] which is on all fours with this case and where HHJ Charles Harris QC observed that life in a block of flats would be ''unworkable'' if residents could not briefly load/unload where rights of access clearly exist.
    As an aside, please contact WHICH? magazine using the easy link from this thread to tell them briefly of your plight. The more people who contact WHICH, the more likely they are to take up this unregulated scam industry as their next cause:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5765579
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-01-2018 at 11:34 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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