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  • FIRST POST
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
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    rizla01
    Will they go to court or not?
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
    Will they go to court or not? 9th Dec 17 at 7:46 PM
    Bit of a sticky one here. Sorry its so long and drawn out.


    Daughter left parking area over alloted 2hr time because she drove her car to the takeaway (located within the parking area) and had to wait to be served. She didn't realise that counted. (Me neither tbh)

    So far, on my instruction she has not responded to any letters from PE except the one from small claims court which also asked for reasons that she contests the charge. (initially £60 if paid within...etc then went up to £120 and then threats of Court Costs Etc to be added could increase this to £250 ish) and after the letter was returned to the court she had a FINAL letter from PE offering her the opportunity of just paying £60 again 'Based on further information that we have received' and that was followed by the self same letter two weeks later.
    Not stating what the 'Further Information ' is. I.e. What, that the time clock was wrong? Wrong Car? What?

    Two days ago she received a 'Proposed Allocation to the small claims fast track service so I need to deal with this rather urgently.

    I understand that I cannot appear in court on her behalf without her being present which is not going to happen.

    Just wondered - How likely are they to pursue this.

    Any advice very gratefully received.
    Last edited by rizla01; 10-12-2017 at 12:44 AM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

Page 10
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 4:12 PM
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    rizla01
    @post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Yes I have.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 4:32 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    She really should mention the fact she qualifies for a reasonable adjustment of time, and that PE have broken the EA, IMHO.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 5:41 PM
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    rizla01
    That is something she doesn't want brought up CM and doesn't see that it should be necessary.
    She/I was hoping that the rest of the evidence against them would be sufficient. Do you perhaps not think so?

    Without adding that would you suggest submitting the reply as is?
    Last edited by rizla01; 11-02-2018 at 5:44 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 5:44 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes, go for it. I do understand her position.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 5:45 PM
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    rizla01
    Is there nothing you would change/add?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 5:55 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I would quote the CPR and list your likely costs (make it over £100) to focus their minds, like here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73194937#post73194937
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 6:09 PM
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    rizla01
    Should I simply add -

    The Claimant is invited to withdraw his claim with no order for costs. This is a "drop hands" offer to settle with each party bearing their own costs. The offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this letter.

    The terms of the offer have value to the Claimant insofar as the defendant will not seek his costs of defending the action.

    If the offer is not accepted, the defendant will seek to claim his costs of the defence and additional costs for unreasonable conduct pursuant to CPR Part 27.14 (2) (d) (e) (g) as per below.

    (2) The court may not order a party to pay a sum to another party in respect of that other party!!!8217;s costs, fees and expenses, including those relating to an appeal, except !!!8211;

    (d) expenses which a party or witness has reasonably incurred in travelling to and from a hearing or in staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing;

    (e) a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for any loss of earnings or loss of leave by a party or witness due to attending a hearing or to staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing;

    (g) such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably

    If we are unable to resolve this via a 'drop hands' arrangement, I will be seeking a punitive cost order against the claimant. Already my costs amount to £65 for time spent in research and seeking legal advice but I will be seeking further costs in view of the claimant's evident unreasonableness in pursuing me as well as the cost involved in employing a Videographer , someone whose services I will partly rely upon for my defence of this case. The cost of that service provided will be a minimum of £120 plus VAT.and on top of that my costs will be in the region of £110 including loss of earnings plus travelling to & from the courthouse.
    Total costs claimed should therefore be in the region of £295.00


    Or do I need to be more specific about the actual amounts claimed and how I arrived at those figures
    Last edited by rizla01; 11-02-2018 at 6:21 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 6:15 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Add in any travel costs and loss of leave/salary for attending a hearing.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 6:19 PM
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    rizla01
    Just did that

    Does that look reasonable to you CM?
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 6:23 PM
    • 54,115 Posts
    • 67,786 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes. I would cut & paste this to the very end, as it points the way ahead:
    The Claimant is invited to withdraw his claim with no order for costs. This is a "drop hands" offer to settle with each party bearing their own costs. The offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this letter.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Feb 18, 6:41 PM
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    Quentin
    @post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Earlier in the thread we were told that the defendant is the keeper, and is a different individual from the OP??
    • rizla01
    • By rizla01 11th Feb 18, 7:19 PM
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    rizla01
    Ok. Hopefully this flows well and covers all the points.

    By way of reply, please permit me to draw your attention to a couple of points that you have raised.
    You stated:-
    1) It should be noted that the grace period at 13.2 of British Parking Association Code of Practice is to allow motorists to enter the car park, read the terms and conditions, and exit the car park if they do not wish to be bound by them.
    Unless I am mistaken, it is Section 13.1 that you are probably referring to which actually says:-

    !!!8216;Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park, but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.!!!8217;

    Whereas section 13.2 that you incorrectly referred to clearly states: - the !!!8216;Grace Period!!!8217; is to enable a motorist reasonable time to decide whether to stay or not.
    Please note-: This period of time applies to ALL motorists, whether or not they decide to park, and NOT as you claim.

    The !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; referred to is in ADDITION to the 2 hour parking event, in the same way that as according to 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice V.6, a !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; AFTER the parking event has taken place, should also be given and that period should be a minimum time of 10 minutes.
    It is now recognised (V. 7 of the B.P.A. Code of Practice) that the !!!8216;grace period!!!8217; prior to parking must also be a minimum of 10 minutes and there is no reason to suggest that period should be any less in previous years.

    Therefore all motorists using this area are allowed 10 minutes, PLUS two hours free parking, plus a further 10 minutes making a sum total of 2 hours and 20 Minutes.
    Clearly you can see that the 2 hours 18 minutes that you claim my car was in the Greyhound Parking area , is well within that time frame in which case I see absolutely no obligation to make any payment to your Company, whatsoever as there is no debt owing. I am totally confident that any judge would draw the same conclusion and I hope you will now see that further continuance of this matter is completely futile and without value.
    If not, then please allow me to reiterate the following failings on your behalf, for the judge to also consider when making his decision:-


    Version 6 Section 18.3 BPA Code of Practice states:-
    a) You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site
    You have failed to satisfy this condition as your signage does NOT cover the whole site. There are many areas, especially where I parked my car and other areas nearby that are completely devoid of any parking signs.
    b] Signs must be conspicuous
    Signage is placed far too high to be considered conspicuous All signs shown on your signage map are approx 8ft off the ground. Indeed one sign shown on your signage map doesn!!!8217;t even exist.
    c) Easy to see read and understand.
    I was only able to read the terms & conditions on your signs with the use of my Iphone by taking a photograph and enlarging it.
    Your email also goes on to say:-

    2) Furthermore, as noted below, you have confirmed that you had seen the signage on the date of the parking event and had been aware of the terms and conditions applicable in remaining at Greyhound Retail Park.
    As stated in my last letter: Doe to the grossly inadequate signage layout, it was only on return to my car that I became aware of ANY sign. I then proceeded to move my car from the car park to the KFC Restaurant area where I was WAITING for an extended period of time before being served. After which time, I queued to leave the car park, as soon as I was able.
    You also add that:-
    3) The signage clearly conveys that by remaining within the car park, the motorist becomes bound by the terms and conditions of parking.
    !!!8216;Clearly conveys!!!8217; is one thing your signage evidently fails to do, since in order to be bound by the terms &conditions within your signage the motorist must reasonably be able to read those terms & conditions. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that is feasible.
    Also, as you will be fully aware, moving my car to a different area; and especially one that has no parking bays and no parking signs (and therefore cannot be considered part of the parking (For shopping) area), constitutes a second parking event and this too, is covered by further legislation ensuring that you are forbidden to count the time spent as one parking event.

    Schedule 4 of the POFA that the notice must relate only to a single period of parking !!!8211; (whether a case relies on that Act or not - the intention of Parliament was not to allow private parking firms to add two parking events together, as happened when the car was moved away from the shops to a completely unsigned area such as the KFC, in order to concoct a parking charge as if the driver overstayed when shopping!)
    So finally, In light of the above, along with the other points raised in my defence, I have CLEARLY demonstrated that this claim has no realistic prospect of success and the claimant is therefore, once again, invited to withdraw the claim.

    If we are unable to resolve this via a 'drop hands' arrangement, I will be seeking a punitive cost order against your Company in view of Parking Eye!!!8217;s evident unreasonableness in pursuing me.

    In order to assist the judge in arriving at a fair decision, will also need to employ the services of a videographer, for evidence providing purposes, to film the view from a car entering and parking, filming footage of the entrance and the entire site to clearly demonstrate where signage is placed and where it is absent. I will also need to take the morning away from very well paid job and,
    I shall seek to claim my costs of the defence and additional costs pursuant to CPR Part 27.14 (2) (d) (e) (g) as per below.

    (2) The court may not order a party to pay a sum to another party in respect of that other party!!!8217;s costs, fees and expenses, including those relating to an appeal, except :-

    (d) expenses which a party or witness has reasonably incurred in travelling to and from a hearing or in staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing;

    (e) a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for any loss of earnings or loss of leave by a party or witness due to attending a hearing or to staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing;

    (g) such further costs as the court may assess by the summary procedure and order to be paid by a party who has behaved unreasonably
    My costs so far amount to £65 for time spent on research and phone calls as well as costs incurred seeking legal advice but I will be seeking further costs also. As well as the cost involved in employing a Videographer (The cost of the service quoted is a minimum of £120 plus VAT) my personal costs will be in the region of £110 including loss of earnings plus travelling to & from the courthouse.
    Total costs claimed will therefore be in the region of £295.00
    You are once again invited to withdraw your claim with no order for costs. This is a "drop hands" offer to settle with each party bearing their own costs. The offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this letter.

    I look forward to your reply

    Is it OK to send unsigned or does it need printing signing and scanning do you think CM?
    Last edited by rizla01; 11-02-2018 at 7:24 PM.
    "Unhappiness is not knowing what we want, and killing ourselves to get it."
    Post Count: 4,111 Thanked 3,111 Times in 1,111 Posts (Actual figures as they once were))
    Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 9:18 PM
    • 54,115 Posts
    • 67,786 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If it's an email reply to an email, no need to sign it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Feb 18, 9:52 PM
    • 16,690 Posts
    • 26,098 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    @post #178 ... it's a long thread ... have you already acknowledged being the driver? If not then your point a) gives the game away.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Oh, Lordy!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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