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  • FIRST POST
    • Curdy
    • By Curdy 8th Dec 17, 9:37 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Curdy
    Parking fines covered by railway bylaws
    • #1
    • 8th Dec 17, 9:37 AM
    Parking fines covered by railway bylaws 8th Dec 17 at 9:37 AM
    Hi all, I wonder if any of you could provide advice or show me where to go to find it. After indigo refused my appeal on a parking ticket I tried to appeal to POPLA against a fine imposed by indigo at Sutton Railway station. POPLA informed me they no longer deal with appeals on car parks covered by railway bylaws. The BPA have confirmed this, saying the only option is to wait to see if it ends up at the magistrates court.

    My case is that I tried to pay for the parking using the online app but it was not working. I have several screenshots of the error message taken over the course of several hours. I tried to phone but could not get through to pay. I also messaged them using the app as well. Is this enough to risk being taken to a magistrate court? Should I write to them telling them I will not pay with the reason why?

    I only have the ticket and an email from indigo giving me the results of the appeal to them so far.

    Any advice would be really welcome

    Many thanks guys.
Page 1
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 8th Dec 17, 11:13 AM
    • 2,420 Posts
    • 2,964 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #2
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:13 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:13 AM
    Hi, and welcome to the forum ....

    there is a multitude of information re 'railway bylaws'

    if you do a forum search then you will find a long long lists of posts .... i suggest having a cuppa handy ...

    Ralph
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Dec 17, 11:34 AM
    • 16,286 Posts
    • 25,339 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:34 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Dec 17, 11:34 AM
    Your first priority is to try to eke this out past the 6 month milestone - not that any TOC for a good few years has prosecuted, and in any case, why would they contract with a PPC if they were inclined to prosecute now. No point in having a dog and barking yourself.

    You could play ‘letter tennis’ with Indigo by asking them a series of questions, but one at a time and space them out every couple of weeks. That will eat up some valuable time.

    I would also write to David Dunford of the DVLA and ask him why, they having provided your details to Indigo, you are denied any access to Alternatve Dispute Resolution, because as Indigo can only pursue under contract law (they can’t under criminal law) your access to any form of dispute resolution is being denied. In other words, this is but a modern day version of a highway robbery.

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Curdy
    • By Curdy 19th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    • 5 Posts
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    Curdy
    • #4
    • 19th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    Imdigo appeal
    • #4
    • 19th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    Hi, does anyone have the template I filled out when I appealed to indigo on their website? I canít recall what information they asked for.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Dec 17, 7:10 PM
    • 52,739 Posts
    • 66,271 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 19th Dec 17, 7:10 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Dec 17, 7:10 PM
    Doesn't matter, but they DO ask who was driving and unless you avoided that, by deliberately adding zeros into boxes, you've blabbed about the driver when appealing.

    Doesn't matter, because this will time out within 6 months anyway, like all the other cases here re Indigo pretending to issue 'penalties' under railway byelaws but instead demanding some money themselves. They - Indigo - cannot take this to a Magistrates' court.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Curdy
    • By Curdy 9th Jan 18, 7:40 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Curdy
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:40 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 7:40 AM
    Hi, thanks for the advice so far. I have now received the expected letter from zips asking for £170. Should I ignore or start an exchange of letters with them? Or should I be writing to indigo? What sort of info can I ask for from them to spin this out?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jan 18, 8:17 AM
    • 40,700 Posts
    • 81,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:17 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:17 AM
    Ignore debt collectors. The NEWBIES tells you why it is safe to do so.

    Complain to the BPA and DVLA that Indigo have set debt collectors on you when this is still at the appeal stage in breach of the BPA CoP. The fact you have been denied access to ADR should feature prominently in your complaint.
    It's not your fault you have been refused access to ADR, which is yours by right, and this is a cynical attempt by the scammers to try to extort money from you and bypass the requirements of the CoP.

    Please add your case to WHICH Magazine using the link from post 1 of this thread. Again, emphasise the fact that you are being denied access to ADR, and the unregulated PPC is trying to con you by implying they have an authority to pursue you under railway byelaws that they do not have.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5765579
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-01-2018 at 12:35 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Jan 18, 8:34 AM
    • 7,609 Posts
    • 6,684 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:34 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 8:34 AM
    I would say, engage with the debt collectors, ask them the same questions you ask the PPC, They have no hope of getting a penny out of you, but having to deal with your letter will cost them money.

    Should you, at a later stage, decide to claim against indigor, perhaps, for harassment, negligence, breach of DPA, a paper trail will stand you in good stead. Ignore is not always the best advice imo.
    Last edited by The Deep; 09-01-2018 at 10:36 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 9th Jan 18, 10:32 AM
    • 5,395 Posts
    • 5,438 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 10:32 AM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 10:32 AM
    The bye-laws state that the "owner" is liable - send a few letters asking for their definition of "owner" and drag it out past 6 months.

    A number of my fleet is financed, therefore we do not have title of ownership to the vehicle. This will also apply to any private vehicles on finance or PCP deals that may well be registered to the driver, but not "owned" by them. Take a look at any V5 document and it clearly states on the front, in big letters. that "This document is not proof of ownership"

    ZZPS are currently in a bit of a tizzy about this definition of ownership issue.
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
    • Curdy
    • By Curdy 15th Jan 18, 6:28 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Curdy
    Thanks fruitcake
    Thanks for the advice. Do you have a link to a standard dvla complaint?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Jan 18, 8:49 PM
    • 16,286 Posts
    • 25,339 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for the advice. Do you have a link to a standard dvla complaint?
    Originally posted by Curdy
    There isn’t one, but I’ve given you the points around which to base your own in post #3. Think about it, how could there possibly be a ‘standard complaint’?

    In addition, a template complaint soon becomes accustomed to - and has absolutely zero impact. Knock one out of your own - from the heart!
    Last edited by Umkomaas; Yesterday at 8:51 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Jan 18, 9:54 PM
    • 8,008 Posts
    • 8,364 Thanks
    pappa golf
    Your first priority is to try to eke this out past the 6 month milestone - not that any TOC for a good few years has prosecuted, and in any case, why would they contract with a PPC if they were inclined to prosecute now. No point in having a dog and barking yourself.

    You could play ‘letter tennis’ with Indigo by asking them a series of questions, but one at a time and space them out every couple of weeks. That will eat up some valuable time.

    I would also write to David Dunford of the DVLA and ask him why, they having provided your details to Indigo, you are denied any access to Alternatve Dispute Resolution, because as Indigo can only pursue under contract law (they can’t under criminal law) your access to any form of dispute resolution is being denied. In other words, this is but a modern day version of a highway robbery.

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    to make this more clear , ask Mr Dunsford , by what method or form number they used to get your details

    V888/1 is for the general public , v888/2 is for companies , HOWEVER parking Cos are obliged to use v888/3 with a very strict criteria , or use the electronic link


    if they have use V888/3 or the electronic link , they must be acting as a parking Co , under rules passed in 2012 , all parking Cos must offer an indipendent appeal

    no appeal is available , therefore they should not be getting your info l
    • amph
    • By amph 16th Jan 18, 1:50 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    amph
    I was just told by Indigo that they no longer offer POPLA appeals, POPLA confirm this is at BPA direction, BPA state this is due to the uncertainty created around Bylaw cases with the new Parking (Code of Practice) Bill 2017-19.
    As I have no intention of arguing with debt collectors, and prefer fighting this on my own terms, I plan to cough up the £60 "Without Prejudice" and work on recovery from there.
    #1 the Penalty Notice still mentions a POPLA appeal process on the back
    #2 I have asked SouthEastern for definitive legal clarification as to whether ParkIndigo are acting as their Agent in all regards (ie the explicitly or implicitly endorse Indigo's operating procedure) - the answer to this will determine whether I start recovery proceedings against Indigo or SouthEastern or both
    #3 I have notified Kent Trading Standards of the unilateral withdrawal of the POPLA process, I will also notify Sir Greg Knight as Parliamentary sponsor of the bill making it's way through Parliament to highlight his Bill is being used as cover for some of the more egregious parking practices to be resumed.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 16th Jan 18, 1:53 PM
    • 2,237 Posts
    • 2,694 Thanks
    waamo
    With respect your plan isn’t the best. If you cough up £60 you won’t see it again.

    Why not follow the advice everyone else follows?
    This space for hire.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 16th Jan 18, 1:56 PM
    • 1,483 Posts
    • 1,601 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Indeed, just get it past 6 months!
    Thats all you need to do. Certainly paying up "without prejudice" is a completely stupid move - because "without prejudice" doesn't mean anything except that document cannot be used in court. If youre looking for "under duress" then that still wont help. You wold have to sue to get it back.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 16th Jan 18, 2:00 PM
    • 8,008 Posts
    • 8,364 Thanks
    pappa golf
    I was just told by Indigo that they no longer offer POPLA appeals, POPLA confirm this is at BPA direction, BPA state this is due to the uncertainty created around Bylaw cases with the new Parking (Code of Practice) Bill 2017-19.
    As I have no intention of arguing with debt collectors, and prefer fighting this on my own terms, I plan to cough up the £60 "Without Prejudice" and work on recovery from there.
    #1 the Penalty Notice still mentions a POPLA appeal process on the back
    #2 I have asked SouthEastern for definitive legal clarification as to whether ParkIndigo are acting as their Agent in all regards (ie the explicitly or implicitly endorse Indigo's operating procedure) - the answer to this will determine whether I start recovery proceedings against Indigo or SouthEastern or both
    #3 I have notified Kent Trading Standards of the unilateral withdrawal of the POPLA process, I will also notify Sir Greg Knight as Parliamentary sponsor of the bill making it's way through Parliament to highlight his Bill is being used as cover for some of the more egregious parking practices to be resumed.
    Originally posted by amph
    I plan to cough up the £60 "Without Prejudice" and work on recovery from there.
    pointless posting on this forum then

    what you have is an invoice from a private company , a company that LEGALLY cannot claim the cash

    it is a "pay us £60/100 and we will not tell the train Co you are a naughty boy"


    problems:

    !: how / why have they got your info from the DVLA all parking Co , regardless of BPA/!PC "thoughts" are obliged by LAW to offer an appeal (independent)

    2: the parking Co , by getting your info from the DVLA cannot "give it" to any train co


    pointless arguing , and its not even your thread
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Jan 18, 3:00 PM
    • 7,609 Posts
    • 6,684 Thanks
    The Deep
    #1 the Penalty Notice still mentions a POPLA appeal process on the back

    Report the matter in writing to Trading Standards.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 16th Jan 18, 3:35 PM
    • 8,008 Posts
    • 8,364 Thanks
    pappa golf
    #1 the Penalty Notice still mentions a POPLA appeal process on the back

    Report the matter in writing to Trading Standards.
    Originally posted by The Deep

    any parking Co using V888/3 or the Kodoe (electronic link) has to be a member of a recognized trade association AND OFFER an INDEPENDENT appeal , this is written in the POFa 2012


    no trade assoc can alter or amend legislation , if details are from DVLA via v888/3 or electronic there MUST be an independent appeal offered

    PPCs are NOT allowed to use v888/1 or v888/2
    • Curdy
    • By Curdy 16th Jan 18, 6:08 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Curdy
    Thanks again all. I have now registered a complaint against dvla. Now for a letter to Indigo.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 16th Jan 18, 6:25 PM
    • 8,008 Posts
    • 8,364 Thanks
    pappa golf
    Thanks again all. I have now registered a complaint against dvla. Now for a letter to Indigo.
    Originally posted by Curdy

    sigh , did you read any posts on this thread ? , we all KNOW what the reply from the DVLA will be regarding your "Complaint"

    you need to pin this down and fire at the DVLA with specific questions in order to get the correct answers , that can be used later on
    did you read this: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73722358&postcount=12
    Last edited by pappa golf; Today at 6:35 PM.
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