Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Confidentality
    • By Confidentality 7th Dec 17, 8:04 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Confidentality
    CEL duplicate claim and Judgement in Default
    • #1
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:04 PM
    CEL duplicate claim and Judgement in Default 7th Dec 17 at 8:04 PM
    Hi everyone, I'm really, really in need of some help and am hoping someone on this forum can help me out.

    Below is an email I sent to the court yesterday (contents are self explanatory of my situation). I received a letter today from the court stating ...

    "Thank you for your email to the court contents of which have been noted on our system.
    Please note in order to avoid a default judgement being entered against you for the above claim number a defence should be filed as soon as possible"

    I rang the court and have been told that although I have raised a duplicate claim issue they say it is up to me to file a defence stating that my defence is that it is a duplicate claim and providing the other claim reference.

    Apparently it is 'not for the court' to ring the defence and ask if the 2 claims are one and the same (they're word perfect) and issued duplicitously in error.

    As for the judgement in default. I have to pay £255 to file an Appeal for the case to say it is duplicitous - even if the court is satisfied that it is a duplicitous claim they may not refund the Appeal fee or set aside the judgement.

    The court said (I don't believe them) that they have limited information as to the claim and cannot see the wording in the (extremely brief) particulars of claim (which CEL said they'd serve a detailed version of within 14 days) - both claim forms state the same date for the parking violation and the same CEL reference number.
    I'm told the court is apparently not there to intervene in proceedings (even duplicitous ones.
    I am told that the proceedings are live and a further Judgement in Default can be made against me at any time (even if the Claim is a duplicitous one)
    As a disabled person I am really, really struggling with all of this, the stress of the claims and the subsequent judgement in default has had a negative impact on my mental health.
    It seems entirely wrong that the onus is on my to prove everything.
    Surely once I have raised the issue of a duplicitous claim and making them aware I am a disabled person (Equality Act applies to me as a disabled service user) that they have a duty as a service provider and additionally under the civil court management procedures to actually do something to assist me to resolve the situation.

    Any help from anyone at all that will assist me to resolve this issue would be appreciated (thank you in advance)
    Surely I do not have to file a defence statement to say that my defence is (1) the proceedings are duplicitous, and (2) no defence applies as no Particulars of Claim have been received for that claim reference.

    As for the email regarding the duplicitous claims - well the court has filed that away (according to their letter) and will not take any action on that (as per the phone call today) - it will hopefully be available to the court when the consider the defence statement for D1 or the Appeal for D2!

    Clearly there is no JUSTICE in the courts service (how ridiculous of me to think there would be) where the onus is clearly in favour of the Prosecution/Claimant on every occasion.

    .....

    BELOW IS THE EMAIL I SENT TO THE COURT

    Dear Sirs

    Further to the telephone conversation a very distraught Ms RR had with a member of your staff earlier today please find enclose details of the duplicate proceedings which have been filed against her and which have caused her immeasurable distress.

    Ms RR asks the court to confirm these are duplicate proceedings, set aside the judgment in default by its own volition (or require the claimant to pay the fee) as the duplicate proceedings have led to the judgement in default.

    Ms RR asks that the Register of Judgements, Orders and Fines to be amended and her details removed.

    Ms RR did not know when she responded to the acknowledgement of service in respect of D1 - it was only late last night she became aware that there were two concurrent and identical claims against her.​

    Claim D1
    Acknowledgement of service was filed online on 3/10/2017
    No particulars of Claim were received for D1 for which she has acknowledged service online.
    As such there should be no requirement to file a Defence.
    Although no Particulars of Claim have ever been received for D1 - she has been told by the Court these proceedings are 'live' and a further Judgement can be made against her at any time.

    Claim D2
    No Acknowledgement of Service was file as Ms RR believed she had done so when the filed one in respect of D1 (thinking it was the same Claim - which is it but it has been filed with the court twice)
    In the Claim form the Claimant requested 14 days to serve detailed
    Particulars of Claim
    These were received with reference to Claim D2 on 25/10/2017 well beyond the 14 days requested on the Claim form.
    There were not detailed, they were vague, they did not meet the requirements specified in the Crown Court Rules.
    Ms RR has not been advised of any Application by the Claimant to serve the Particulars out of time.
    No Defence was filed at following the receipt of the vague cut and paste PoC - there was an intention to do so within the timescale permitted by the court. On 4/11/2017 her father died and as such the defence was not filed. His funeral took place on 20/11/2017

    ATTACHED DOCUMENTATION

    Attached is a document providing further representations for Ms RR and a scanned copy of the 'Particulars of Claim' in respect of D2 - a copy of the envelope containing the paperwork is included as evidence they were served out of time.

    Included in the file is a copy of the poor and vague Particulars of Claim she received for D2

    ......

    I ALSO SENT THE FOLLOWING IN AN ATTACHMENT

    On 3 October 2017 a Claim was made at the County Court Business Centre in Northampton by Civil Enforcement Limited against RR.

    RR is totally confused with and struggling to understand the proceedings, the Claim and the subsequent Judgement against her.

    RR is a disabled person; with physical, mental and emotional impairment - medical evidence can be provided if required (disabilities detailed).

    On 16 October 2017 RR was involved in a traffic accident - proof of accident can are provided if required - she is remains injured from this incident and the injuries she sustained had a negative impact on pre existing disabilities.

    On 30 October 2017 RR registered on the Government Gateway and completed the Response Pack in respect of Claim D1.
    She ticked the box indicating an intention to defence all of the claim.
    She ticked the box indicating she contested the jurisdiction. Northampton is a significant distance from her home town from where the incident to which the claim relates.

    On 4 November 2017 the father of RR passed away, this has had an significant negative impact on her physical, mental and emotional wellbeing which was already very vulnerable.

    On 22 November 2017 (the day after the funeral of Ms RRs’ father) the court made a judgement against RR in respect of claim D2 despite the claimant consistently failing to comply with county court rules

    Whilst attempting to file an Appeal to the Judgement in default made in respect of D2 it became apparent that there were 2 identical / duplicate claims against RR.

    She asks the court to;
    1 confirm this is a duplicate claim
    2 set aside the Judgement in default in respect of D2 - RR had acknowledged service in one claim D1 not knowing there were two ongoing claims for the same purported loss
    3 Waive the Appeal fee or require the Claimant to pay it as it is due to their duplicate claim that confusion as to the acknowledgement of service and the judgement arose.
    4 advise the Claimant to withdraw/discontinue the duplicate claim
    5 strike out the remaining claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.
    5 record a full denial for the remaining claim
    6 set a new timeline for service of the Defence
    7 transfer proceedings to her home town - Newcastle upon Tyne

    RR is highly unlikely to be able to attend court for the hearing due to her aforementioned disabilities and asks that adjustments be put in place so she can engage with the proceedings over the telephone.

    The Claimant has taken a disgraceful shambolic approach to these proceedings, repeatedly failed to comply with the Pre Court Protocol and Crown Court Rules governing Civil Proceedings.

    As such the Defendant asks the the court to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success and due to the appalling conduct of the Claimant in respect of this matter.
Page 1
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 7th Dec 17, 8:52 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 1,388 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:52 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:52 PM
    Ok, so judgment was obtained - there was no defence, there were Particulars, these go through "on the nod"

    You need to apply to set aside. If cash is very tight you may be eligible for a fee remission (refund). In any case, if you win, you'd be entitled to seek the fee back.

    With a better version of your statement I think prospects are good of getting the set aside. First, your confusion is understandable, second the Particulars are late (there's lots on the forum about these) and third, the claimant brought about the situation by their own admin error so should not receive the windfall of default judgment, where the defendant has clearly indicated an intention to defend the claim (the facts of both cases being the same).
    • Confidentality
    • By Confidentality 7th Dec 17, 9:21 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Confidentality
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:21 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:21 PM
    Thanks Johneresh for your reply.

    I had sadly and probably foolishly expected the Court having been made aware of the duplicate proceedings and the subsequent outcome have confirmed with the defence that that's what they were, set aside the judgement and set a new timetable - and as for the other 'live' proceedings tell the defence to drop them or kick them out themselves on the basis of duplicity.

    I've had to retire from work on ill health grounds and have a low pension, not low enough to get financial aid. I also received both limbs of PIP benefit.

    It does seem fundamentally wrong that the court - in knowledge that an issue of duplicity has been raised - is allowing a Judgement in default to stand and also the other proceedings to continue in the courts.

    Whatever happened to courts management powers to intervene under the procedure rules and it's inherent power of discretion to correct a wrongdoing?!

    Sadly that means the courts need do nothing, CEL do nothing. And I have to jump through hoops and cough up money due to the mess up that CEL have made in issuing the claim.

    On another note ... I see from the particulars of claim (the brief one on the origin Claim Form that they are claiming interest from 2/10/2017 but the claim is dated 3/10/2017 a day later.

    Also when receiving the 'detailed' (certainly not detailed) particulars of claim for proceedings D2 they did not include the forms specified in the Procedure Rules:

    Form for defence etc. must be served with particulars of claim
    7.8
    (1) When particulars of claim are served on a defendant, whether they are contained in the claim form, served with it or served subsequently, they must be accompanied by
    (a) a form for defending the claim;
    (b) a form for admitting the claim; and
    (c) a form for acknowledging service.

    Whilst these were served with the initial claim form according to the regulations they must be served again (if I have read it correctly)
    • Confidentality
    • By Confidentality 7th Dec 17, 9:29 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Confidentality
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:29 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:29 PM
    Hi Logican, thanks for your reply.

    RR is me - the 'Defendant' (not sure what an OP is). I thought Defendants were in criminal proceedings and respondents were the appropriate name given to us in civil cases. Oh well!

    The Court were kind enough ask to offer to get me the number for a counselling helpline - I was so distressed and this made worse by being repeatedly put on hold so they could consult with a colleague (both calls), another call taker kept sighing and was getting VERY frustrated with my inability to comprehend was she was saying to me.

    I'm unsure about a litigation friend but probably no harm asking. Thanks for the suggestion.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 9:33 PM
    • 16,924 Posts
    • 21,048 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:33 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:33 PM
    an OP is an Opening Poster - ie:- YOU

    you started this thread with an Opening Post , so you are the OP , on a forum any forum , nothing to do with legal matters

    and yes you are the Defendant if your name is on the MCOL or CCJ etc

    Northampton CCBC is just a business office that centralises the bulk claims for england and wales , so its manned by civil servants and acts as a processing centre for the government

    you are no doubt aware of others like for HMRC , DVLA , TV Licensing etc . there is no actual "court" where they are , no legally trained staff, just clerical people doing the work

    as a private defendant it is your local county court where the legal stuff is done , so any defendant submitting their defence is allocated their local court further down the line

    read the BARGEPOLE thread linked in post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread for explanations etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • logician
    • By logician 7th Dec 17, 9:34 PM
    • 90 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    logician
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:34 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:34 PM
    Hi Logican, thanks for your reply.

    RR is me - the 'Defendant' (not sure what an OP is). I thought Defendants were in criminal proceedings and respondents were the appropriate name given to us in civil cases. Oh well!

    The Court were kind enough ask to offer to get me the number for a counselling helpline - I was so distressed and this made worse by being repeatedly put on hold so they could consult with a colleague (both calls), another call taker kept sighing and was getting VERY frustrated with my inability to comprehend was she was saying to me.

    I'm unsure about a litigation friend but probably no harm asking. Thanks for the suggestion.
    Originally posted by Confidentality

    Hi yes I realised that your were the OP, upon reading the opening post again and your reply do I have deleted the post as it would only add confusion to the thread.

    I got a bit confused by RR - but that is you.


    Given the state of your health and possible mental health issues, if you have a close family friend who could apply to be your litigation friend, this could be considered by the court. I am of course going by limited information on the forum and do not know your personal health details or whether these would cross the threshold.

    No need to have contested jurisdiction - Northampton is a bulk issuing centre - cases will be moved to local courts.

    As Redx has pointed out - you are the OP
    Last edited by logician; 07-12-2017 at 9:37 PM. Reason: eta
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 7th Dec 17, 10:12 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 1,388 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 10:12 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 10:12 PM
    A litigation friend is an unhelpful suggestion. It is clearly not appropriate.

    Since the o/p has engaged with this forum, understood the nature of the claim and replied appropriately to messages it's highly unlikely that there is any lack of mental capacity to conduct the litigation.

    Anxiety and difficulty is not the same thing as an inability to understand litigation proceedings.

    What is required may be someone to support you in any hearing - that is a quite different proposition.
    • logician
    • By logician 7th Dec 17, 11:47 PM
    • 90 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    logician
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 11:47 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 11:47 PM
    As a disabled person I am really, really struggling with all of this, the stress of the claims and the subsequent judgement in default has had a negative impact on my mental health.


    Ms RR did not know when she responded to the acknowledgement of service in respect of D1 - it was only late last night she became aware that there were two concurrent and identical claims against her.​


    RR is totally confused with and struggling to understand the proceedings, the Claim and the subsequent Judgement against her.

    RR is a disabled person; with physical, mental and emotional impairment - medical evidence can be provided if required (disabilities detailed).

    On 16 October 2017 RR was involved in a traffic accident - proof of accident can are provided if required - she is remains injured from this incident and the injuries she sustained had a negative impact on pre existing disabilities.


    On 4 November 2017 the father of RR passed away, this has had an significant negative impact on her physical, mental and emotional wellbeing which was already very vulnerable.


    Whilst attempting to file an Appeal to the Judgement in default made in respect of D2 it became apparent that there were 2 identical / duplicate claims against RR.


    RR is highly unlikely to be able to attend court for the hearing due to her aforementioned disabilities and asks that adjustments be put in place so she can engage with the proceedings over the telephone.
    Originally posted by Confidentality
    .

    I'received both limbs of PIP benefit.

    )
    Originally posted by Confidentality
    A litigation friend is an unhelpful suggestion. It is clearly not appropriate.

    Since the o/p has engaged with this forum, understood the nature of the claim and replied appropriately to messages it's highly unlikely that there is any lack of mental capacity to conduct the litigation.

    Anxiety and difficulty is not the same thing as an inability to understand litigation proceedings.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    ***removed by forum team***

    I deleted my original post as i skim read the opening post and was unsure whether the OP was the Defendant as well or posting on behalf of the Defendant. However for clarity I have emboldened the relevant details for you to consider and I pointed out that this was based on limited information and not knowing facts on the medical conditions whether the court could consider this to be crossing the threshold.

    The OP was unclear and stated they did not understand the claim and proceedings. They qualify for both limbs of PIP and she confirms to have mental and emotional impairment, compounded by a recent car accident and a bereavement adding to the toll.

    FYI I am aware of a number of cases where the courts have appointed a litigation friend and been in court when they have been appointed.
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam1; 08-12-2017 at 8:10 PM.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 8th Dec 17, 9:03 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 1,388 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #9
    • 8th Dec 17, 9:03 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Dec 17, 9:03 AM
    No doubt Johnersh you will now be medically qualified
    I don't claim to be. Are you? Thought not.

    qualified to ascertain the facts on whether the OP does not need or is not entitled to a litigation friend.
    This is different. You'll of course be aware from the mental capacity act, that capacity is decision specific. It doesn't require a medical view to assess capacity, merely to assess it once there is a doubt as to capacity. For reference reading, Masterman-Lister is also helpful.

    I have explained my line of reasoning as to why I think there is capacity to understand the litigation - not least because the o/p is seeking out appropriate advice. Difficulty with the litigation even if linked to medical ill-health is not of and by itself enough or the same as an impairment of functioning or mind necessary to understand the proceedings or to provide instructions.

    You may be aware of cases. FWIW I have conducted a number. That may or may not have informed my view. Nevertheless, since mental health can be highly nuanced and since (the one thing we agree on) there may be much more to this than the o/p has posted, I'll leave this be.
    • Confidentality
    • By Confidentality 8th Dec 17, 10:01 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Confidentality
    Hi, thanks for the responses to my post.
    To clarify my disabilities are aggravated when I am under stress, the greater the stress the worse my condition is.
    The disabilities fall into a perpetual cycle (a mental, physical and emotional triangle) where a deterioration in one leads to a deterioration in the others into a downward spiral.

    I can articulate in writing if I am well enough, absorbing information is difficult, communicating verbally can at times be almost impossible if my mental and emotional distress is heightened e.g. these proceedings, the judgement, the car accident and my fathers passing have all contributed to a significant deterioration in my health.

    That said I do not wish my disabilities to be a distraction from what I as essentially asking for help with here, I posted that as I'd listed it in my communications to the court to explain my personal situation - and also to explain why I may struggle more than others with understanding what to do next.

    I have read (though struggle to absorb) the newbies post and other posts on this forum especially relating to CEL. I have not found another post (please point me to one if there is) where duplicitous proceedings have been issued against the defendant and in particular where a judgement in default has been made against one of them. If there isn't another person who has experienced this it is good, if it happens to someone in the future hopefully the responses to my positing will assist them in knowing what to do next.

    CEL were wrong to issue duplicitous proceedings against me.

    My issue is largely with the court - once informed this is a duplicitous claim surely they should be under an obligation to determine if that is the case (not sure in the interests of justice apply in the civil courts).

    As simple contact from the court to CEL will confirm the position surely the court is under a legal obligation using their case management powers (surely they are there to be used) to;
    (1) stop the live proceedings, and
    (2) set aside the Judgement in Default for the duplicate proceedings.

    I have just had a realisation (maybe a wrong one) but looking at the D numbers on the Claim form (if they are sequential) the Judgement in Default was made in respect of the second Claim to be filed (starting D6) and the 'live' proceedings are still pending (starting D5).

    If this is the case hopefully I can defend the D5 claim as no Particulars of Claim were filed.
    Appeal to the court in respect of D6 as these proceedings are the duplicitous ones - and ask for the Judgement to be set aside and for CEL to meet the Appeal costs.

    Does anyone know if the D numbers are issued sequentially before I waste my time heading down the wrong path?

    Thanks in advance for any responses.
    Last edited by Confidentality; 08-12-2017 at 10:11 AM. Reason: amendment of text
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Dec 17, 2:35 PM
    • 51,807 Posts
    • 65,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I haven't seen any other situation like yours, I think this is a one-off.

    Do you qualify for fee assistance, to avoid the £255?

    https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have just had a realisation (maybe a wrong one) but looking at the D numbers on the Claim form (if they are sequential) the Judgement in Default was made in respect of the second Claim to be filed (starting D6) and the 'live' proceedings are still pending (starting D5).

    If this is the case hopefully I can defend the D5 claim as no Particulars of Claim were filed.
    Unless this was a bulk filing run that included all numbers between that D5 number and the D6 number, then no, the numbers do not necessarily show the order in which they were filed, I am afraid.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,207Posts Today

6,899Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Have a lovely weekend folks. Don't do anything (fiscally) that I wouldn't do!

  • RT @thismorning: With his last deals of the year, @MartinSLewis wishes us all a 'very merry Christmas, a happy Hanukkah and a wonderful and?

  • RT @stoneygran: @MartinSLewis I furtively used a pub toilet last night before getting on the bus and felt really guilty!

  • Follow Martin