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    • Witton Park
    • By Witton Park 7th Dec 17, 4:45 PM
    • 2Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Witton Park
    Over the time or not?
    • #1
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:45 PM
    Over the time or not? 7th Dec 17 at 4:45 PM
    My daughter has received a PCN for a Smart Parking car park for unauthorised parking on their car park.
    They are using "for remaining at the car park for longer than permitted and using the photo evidence of her entering and leaving the Car Park which shows she was inside the confines of the Car Park for 2:13 minutes on a 2 hour ticket.

    However, when she arrived the Car Park was full, she had to wait a couple of minutes for parking bay to come free and proceeded to park. She then bought her ticket. The ticket shows she purchased it 5 minutes after time on the photo.

    It is my assertion that the contract was formed at the point of purchasing the ticket. She did it as promptly as she could and that was the first time she was able to read the Terms and Conitions applying to that Car Park.
    She left the Car Park expecting to return and leave within the 2 hour period set out on the ticket.
    When she returned she was a few minutes late and hence the leaving picture is 8 minutes over the end of the time on the ticket.

    However, Smart Parking are members of the BPA. The BPA have ordered it's member to apply the 10 minute Grace Period. This period is that at the end of the paid for parking time or after the expiry of a free parking period and is for a minimum of 10 minutes.
    ie. They do not have grounds to issue the PCN as she left within 2 minutes of the time at which Smart would have been entitled to issue the PCN.

    Any comments please?
    Best Regards
    Richard
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 4:53 PM
    • 16,937 Posts
    • 21,075 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:53 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:53 PM
    you missed the earlier grace period in clause #13 of the BPA CoP

    this happens a lot , people concentrate on the leaving the site period of OVER 10 minutes and bypass the earlier grace period , time to park, read the signs , get a ticket etc

    so not so smart allege an overstay of 12 minutes , so let us assume its 5 to 10 minutes to park up , read the signs and get a ticket , plus OVER 10 minutes to leave , so 5 minutes + 8 minutes

    the good lady is within that set of 2 periods and done nothing wrong

    did the NTK arrive within the 14 days allowed or was it late ?

    ie:- date of incident ?
    date of NTK ?
    date the envelope arrived ?

    when we establish all the facts , use this template and remove anything not relevant , so possibly POFA2012 compliance if the NTK arrived in time

    leave the clause #13 paragraph in though

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73242562 post #4
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Dec 17, 4:56 PM
    • 7,767 Posts
    • 8,042 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:56 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:56 PM
    there is also an additional grace period upon entering

    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a
    driver who enters your car park but decides not to park,
    to leave the car park within a reasonable period without
    having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.

    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’
    in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the
    driver is on your land without permission you should still
    allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave
    before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace
    period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask
    what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave
    the private car park after the parking contract has ended,
    before you take enforcement action.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Dec 17, 4:58 PM
    • 7,767 Posts
    • 8,042 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:58 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 4:58 PM
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace
    period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask
    what it is.



    but not the general public
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 5:03 PM
    • 15,962 Posts
    • 24,774 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:03 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:03 PM
    There are 2 Grace Periods. Have a read of Clause 13 of the BPA Code of Practice.

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

    You’re correct in your assumptions.

    You have 28 days from the date of issue on the NtK to appeal to Smart. Use the blue text template from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 and add a final paragraph to state that the times of the parking event fell within the parameters of the BPA’s CoP’s Grace Periods and why are they harassing the Keeper with this wholly unjustifiable charge. Tell them that dependent on how they respond to this challenge will determine whether you lodge formal complaints with Mr Steve Clark of the BPA and Mr David Dunford of the DVLA.

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 5:24 PM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:24 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:24 PM
    Strictly, the wording on the first Grace period applies to those motorists who leave after reading the t&c or can't find a space.

    I recall seeing a recent entrance sign on here that stated that the time started when you enter the site, not when you park. Equally, there have been cases won in court when the judge decided that the time started when the motorist parked and bought a ticket.

    The fact there is a ticket gives you an additional edge - see below.

    Your best chance, I feel, is that the ticket will show an arrival time and departure time. Already, the PPC will have incorporated an entry grace period into what is printed on the ticket and the departure time will be 2 hours and 5 minutes after entry. It is from the departure time that the 10 minutes grace applies and that should be the appeal major point.

    Your contract gave parking from entry plus 5 minutes for 2 hours. 5 minutes is a reasonable time to find a space and park.

    BPA CoP says

    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave
    the private car park after the parking contract has ended,
    before you take enforcement action.

    Your contract includes what you have on the ticket which has a specific time for it ending.
    • warehouse
    • By warehouse 7th Dec 17, 5:30 PM
    • 3,031 Posts
    • 5,662 Thanks
    warehouse
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:30 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:30 PM
    OP I fought 2 tickets for my daughter last year, (not on the same grounds as you), and eventually got them both overturned. The feeling I got was well worth the time and effort spent so I shall be following this thread to it's conclusion, where you will win.

    Good luck.
    Pants
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 5:33 PM
    • 15,962 Posts
    • 24,774 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:33 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:33 PM
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave
    the private car park after the parking contract has ended,
    before you take enforcement action.
    @GD - have you omitted the important bit from 13.4 for any reason?
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 5:40 PM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:40 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 5:40 PM
    @GD - have you omitted the important bit from 13.4 for any reason?
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Yes, bad cut n' paste on my part

    OP, use the text Umkomaas has added.
    • Witton Park
    • By Witton Park 8th Dec 17, 3:09 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Witton Park
    Thanks everyone. I'm going to dispute. They have submitted the notice in time and it is now 10 days since issue so I will raise the dispute tomorrow. I just want to check one thing.

    Redx - you mention using a template - what template?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Dec 17, 3:37 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,229 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    NEWBIES thread, where you should have gone already, as its realllllly obvious at the top fo the forum page....
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