Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    • 66Posts
    • 5Thanks
    azz007
    MINSTER PCN postal
    • #1
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    MINSTER PCN postal 6th Dec 17 at 6:40 PM
    So just to be clear this is not related to any other PCN threads i have.

    MINSTER BAYWATCH - These are seriously gettng on my nerves thibking they can just go round issuing these tickets. As keeper have recieved a PCN via post. However, the strange thing is, this was not a windcreen ticket or via an ANPR camera system.

    This was issued after someone(assuming a parking warden) has took pictures of the car and then issued the PCN and arrived by post. It has pictures of the car at the location it was parked,

    They MINSTER have no dealing here at the location of parking and all of a sudden put some signs up recently about no parking etc. Are they allowed to do this issue a PCN this way taking photos of the car with a handheld camera device to then issue a postal PCN.?

    See a copy of the letter recieved , it doesent state how long the driver was allegedly there for.
    hxxps://www.dropbox.com/sh/i72y9pjn7i6wvni/AACOHcTM4O6zHeU0KITH-m0oa?dl=0

    They are started to really get on my nerves and feel like hunting this warden down.
Page 2
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 9:40 AM
    • 15,886 Posts
    • 24,632 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    if you look on the link above, ^^
    What/whose are those 2 yellow signs on the wall? MB tend to have yellow signage.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 9:47 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    What/whose are those 2 yellow signs on the wall? MB tend to have yellow signage.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    thats the signs, small as anything... about 30cmx30cm.. just dotted along in the background. they have recently gone up. never seen them before there.

    they have put signs up for the sake of it., they have no bussiness on this side. just issuing tickets for fun and causing drivers havoc.
    and still people are parking there anyways by looks of it
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 10:22 AM
    • 15,886 Posts
    • 24,632 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You urgently need to find out who the landowner is and if they have not contracted with MB, then get on to the Police/Trading Standards.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 10:27 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    You urgently need to find out who the landowner is and if they have not contracted with MB, then get on to the Police/Trading Standards.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    how do i got about doing this to find the exact landowner with the correct land details.. there are a few busniesses onm that site. mecca bingo, hairdresers... walking centre etc.

    Google has mecca bingo address at OL8 1DR.
    the NTK has mecca bingo OL8 1ES. where it stated the dirver had parked


    and what sort of wording do i mention to police and trading standards about this?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 10:29 AM
    • 15,886 Posts
    • 24,632 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    The Land Registry will give you a definitive answer - costs £3.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 10:38 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    The Land Registry will give you a definitive answer - costs £3.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    there are 2 coming up for OL8 1ES - stated data NO & YES??

    Bank Top Tavern, King Square, Oldham, OL8 1ES
    Tenure:
    Leasehold
    Price Paid/Value Stated Data: No
    Information available »

    OR

    Tenure:
    Freehold
    Price Paid/Value Stated Data: Yes
    Information available »


    and then how do i find out if they MINSTER have a contract with them?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 10:57 AM
    • 15,886 Posts
    • 24,632 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    and then how do i find out if they MINSTER have a contract with them?
    Contact ‘Bank Top Tavern’? They might be in a much better position to point you in the right direction than me at this stage.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 11:24 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    Contact ‘Bank Top Tavern’? They might be in a much better position to point you in the right direction than me at this stage.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    might just wait a little as i already have one at POPLA stage with MINSTER and have mentioned landowner authority. so see if they have any contract with the landowner. would they tell me me this when they get back to me on my POPLA appeal?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 11:56 AM
    • 1,144 Posts
    • 1,173 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    It depends on whether they contest the appeal or not.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 12:01 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    It depends on whether they contest the appeal or not.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    well that appeal is 8 days in at POPLA. so coudl wait as i have 28 days from the 6th to appeal this one. so could wait 2/3 weeks. till i do anythign with this one.

    in meantime have drafted a letter. i think i can try get this one to be canccled. if not il go down the usual popla route.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Sirs,
    Re: Parking Charge Number 12345

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    The driver was issued with a parking ticket for parking at Mecca Bingo Lower OL8 1ES on 29/11/17. I believe this ticket was issued unfairly.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    The signage is very poor and not legible on entry of the car parking area and cannot be seen in the dark, being winter time these signs were not visible to the driver. There are no yellow lines, single or double lines to restrict parking.

    Further reasons - There was insufficient signage. There was no sign at the entrance of the car park coming in from John Street. There was insufficient signage and not legible. The driver was unable to tell what parking restrictions applied because there were no visible signs or unable to tell what parking restrictions applied because it was dark and the sign wasn’t illuminated in any way.

    On another separate visit to look at the site as Keeper, signs say maximum parking time 30 minutes. The ticket was issued at 09.58 with handled photos of the vehicle. However the driver had left within this time frame. You have no proof of observation time, and issued time, and no proof of when the driver had left. So to issue this ticket was punitive and unjustifiable.

    Also there is no proof of landowner authority. As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn so please cancel the charge.

    Should you obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 12:09 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 12:50 PM
    • 15,886 Posts
    • 24,632 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    The ticket was issued at 09.58 with handled photos of the vehicle.
    ‘handled photos’?

    Also there is no proof of landowner authority. As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).
    Have you drafted this yourself from scratch or copied and pasted from somewhere else? It’s not addressing the PPC directly. It looks more like an appeal to a third party (POPLA?) rather than to the PPC.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Dec 17, 1:11 PM
    • 4,733 Posts
    • 3,071 Thanks
    KeithP
    The driver was unable to tell what parking restrictions applied because there were no visible signs or unable to tell what parking restrictions applied because it was dark and the sign wasn’t illuminated in any way.
    Can that sentence be tidied up?
    .
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 1:30 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    ‘handled photos’?

    can i say Portable device?

    Have you drafted this yourself from scratch or copied and pasted from somewhere else? It’s not addressing the PPC directly. It looks more like an appeal to a third party (POPLA?) rather than to the PPC.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    can i say Portable device?

    i took that from my popla appeal. is there anyway to advise how to make it addressed directly to the PPC with your help..... or best to leave this part out on the appeal.?

    Edited
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Also there is no proof of landowner authority by yourselves Minster Baywatch to operate on this land - Bank Top Tavern OL8 1ES stated on the PCN. As you does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require you to produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what you are authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because your are contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that you are also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 1:51 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 3:51 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,996 Thanks
    Redx
    looking at the picture provided and the google overhead map it seems to be at the side of the mecca bingo to the left near the overhead ramp to the car park, whereas the pub is to the right of that ramp so unconnected. it actually looks like a loading bay area

    so if MB monitor the MECCA BINGO car park its likely that Mecca Bingo own that land and have asked MB to keep it clear (its like a loading bay for Mecca, or some other purpose)

    we need to go on the assumption that it is private land and the landowner has asked MB to monitor and enforce on that land

    the NTK mentions Mecca Bingo too , so as well as monitoring the overhead car park I think MB are now monitoring that strip of land as well, for the landowner

    it could well be a cash cow trap set for the unwary

    the sign picture shows clearly that parking is forbidden, whereas we dont have a picture of the other sign , its possible that 2 regimes are in force, one being NO PARKING and the other being parking for 30 minutes, with no clear demarcation on the ground

    I would assume that Mecca have contracted MB to enforce on their own private land and any appeals etc should proceed on that basis unless proved otherwise

    getting the actual land registry footprint and boundary markings may also prove if this is the case

    MB could have got the postcode wrong so I do not believe the Bank Tavern Pub is involved at all

    and post #20 wants editing to "where the driver was parked"

    you need to depersonalise all your writings on public forums
    Last edited by Redx; 07-12-2017 at 4:17 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Dec 17, 4:14 PM
    • 4,733 Posts
    • 3,071 Thanks
    KeithP
    can i say Portable device?
    Originally posted by azz007
    You can say hand held camera - if that's what you mean.
    .
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 4:19 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    looking at the picture provided and the google overhead map it seems to be at the side of the mecca bingo to the left near the overhead ramp to the car park, whereas the pub is to the right of that ramp so unconnected. it actually looks like a loading bay area
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thats right, the driver was literally parked beneath the overhead strip.MB do monitor the main Mecca bingo car parks ground and upper level. and now have extended their signs everywhere else almost. Just not near the St John medical centre as show on google maps overhead view.

    the NTK mentions Mecca Bingo too , so as well as monitoring the overhead car park I think MB are now monitoring that strip of land as well, for the landowner
    Originally posted by Redx
    so is the NTK non compliant as it has wrong address OL8 1ES as thats Bank top Tavern? Could i argue this on appeal?


    the sign picture shows clearly that parking is forbidden, whereas we dont have a picture of the other sign , its possible that 2 regimes are in force, one being NO PARKING and the other being parking for 30 minutes, with no clear demarcation on the ground
    Originally posted by Redx
    yeh there are 2 or 3 different signs in this area beneath the overhead strip, the bay area. ive added on the drop box link the sign picture,.


    MB could have got the postcode wrong so I do not believe the Bank Tavern Pub is involved at all
    Originally posted by Redx
    reiterating the above, is the NTK non-compliant then as it has potentially the wrong adresss if they are not operating for the BANK TOP TAVERN.
    mecca bingo adress is 24-28, King Street, Oldham, OL8 1DR and NOT OL8 1ES
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 4:26 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 4:21 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,996 Thanks
    Redx
    you mean THE DRIVER was parked !!

    you still havent got the hang of the depersonalisation yet , have you ?

    what happened on the day happened to THE DRIVER

    what happened since the day has happened to THE KEEPER

    edit the last post and post #20 please

    for avoidance off doubt , do not use the following words "ME , MYSELF & I"

    I have no idea if the NTK is compliant , I have never said I am a legal expert on these matters nor do I know what the Post Office designate for that particular area near the health centre and pub , other than their own postal addresses

    I have pointed out the obvious from studying your pictures and posts and the google map overhead picture of the mecca bingo

    Mario Hair is King Square, Oldham OL8 1DH

    John St Medical is 1 John St, Oldham OL8 1DF

    the front of Mecca Bingo is 24-28 King St, Oldham OL8 1DR

    Bank top Tavern is OL8 1ES

    the closest letter box to where the vehicle was parked seems to be the last one , the pub itself and I believe that the land there is owned by Mecca Bingo , as it seems to be part of their overhead gantry area and loading bay

    it is definitely in the OL8 postcode area
    Last edited by Redx; 07-12-2017 at 4:38 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 4:37 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    have no idea if the NTK is compliant , I have never said I am a legal expert on these matters nor do I know what the Post Office designate for that particular area near the health centre and pub , other than their own postal addresses

    I have pointed out the obvious from studying your pictures and posts and the google map overhead picture of the mecca bingo

    Mario Hair is King Square, Oldham OL8 1DH

    John St Medical is 1 John St, Oldham OL8 1DF

    Bank top Tavern is OL8 1ES

    the front of Mecca Bingo is 24-28 King St, Oldham OL8 1DR
    Originally posted by Redx
    those are the correct address you have stated thanks.

    POFA) 2012 Schedule 4 PARA 9, 2,a

    (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

    i think they have got the land incorrect on the NTK as i dont think BANK TOP are involved here.

    went to speak to somebody at lunchtime there and they said a man in a white van comes in the morning takes pictures and off he goes.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 4:47 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,996 Thanks
    Redx
    the relevant land seems to be MECCA BINGO and it is definitely in the OL8 postcode area after googling the postcode map

    so the latter designation may or may not be correct but as its near the pub I suspect it is correct

    my opinion is that MECCA BINGO own that strip of land and those loading bay areas , especially when looking at the overhead map and they must have had planning permission for the ramp and its gantry holding it up near to where the vehicle was parked , so if the NTK says Mecca Bingo then it seems correct to me , plus the postcode could be correct given the proximity of that pub

    that sign you posted says the driver agrees to a charge of £100 for parking there, so its a one shot deal for the pictures , the contract to park is £100 and the vehicle was clearly parked there so that is what you are fighting as keeper of the vehicle
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 4:52 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    azz007
    the relevant land seems to be MECCA BINGO and it is definitely in the OL8 postcode area after googling the postcode map

    so the latter designation may or may not be correct but as its near the pub I suspect it is correct

    my opinion is that MECCA BINGO own that strip of land and those loading bay areas , especially when looking at the overhead map and they must have had planning permission for the ramp and its gantry holding it up near to where the vehicle was parked , so if the NTK says Mecca Bingo then it seems correct to me , plus the postcode could be correct given the proximity of that pub

    that sign you posted says the driver agrees to a charge of £100 for parking there, so its a one shot deal for the pictures , the contract to park is £100 and the vehicle was clearly parked there so that is what you are fighting as keeper of the vehicle
    Originally posted by Redx
    The signage is poor and cannot be seen they a small 30cmx30xm is that. even from 10 yartds difficult tot read and especially gettign to work at 8am its still dark and not fairly visile to see, on close inspection yes every sign is clear.

    i can only appeal , which they can either look at or reject,,, so it will be onto POPLA next either way
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

51Posts Today

4,075Users online

Martin's Twitter