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  • FIRST POST
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    • 72Posts
    • 7Thanks
    azz007
    MINSTER PCN postal
    • #1
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    MINSTER PCN postal 6th Dec 17 at 6:40 PM
    So just to be clear this is not related to any other PCN threads i have.

    MINSTER BAYWATCH - These are seriously gettng on my nerves thibking they can just go round issuing these tickets. As keeper have recieved a PCN via post. However, the strange thing is, this was not a windcreen ticket or via an ANPR camera system.

    This was issued after someone(assuming a parking warden) has took pictures of the car and then issued the PCN and arrived by post. It has pictures of the car at the location it was parked,

    They MINSTER have no dealing here at the location of parking and all of a sudden put some signs up recently about no parking etc. Are they allowed to do this issue a PCN this way taking photos of the car with a handheld camera device to then issue a postal PCN.?

    See a copy of the letter recieved , it doesent state how long the driver was allegedly there for.
    hxxps://www.dropbox.com/sh/i72y9pjn7i6wvni/AACOHcTM4O6zHeU0KITH-m0oa?dl=0

    They are started to really get on my nerves and feel like hunting this warden down.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Dec 17, 6:43 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:43 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:43 PM
    yes they can use handheld cameras, a lot of companies using parking CEO`s do this and UKPC employees were found to be doctoring time stamps not that long ago

    just appeal it same as the others you have had
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    so frustrating that they are taking away good parking areas, there are not even any yellows, single lines etc. Really annoying this. Now to avoid another PCN the driver cannot park there now!! how much appealing and fighting is one suppsoed to do.

    and as it states on the letter ' vehicle parked longer than maximum period.'
    so has the driver breached their contract here?

    on quick glimpse of the small measly signage it does say something about 30 minutes. this is no pay and display. this just some land near a nhs walking centre and a hairdressers where cars should be able to park.

    No observation time, or issue time has been logged too. maybe i can add some further points to the BLUE appeal letter?
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 6th Dec 17, 6:56 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 341 Thanks
    claxtome
    • #4
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:56 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Dec 17, 6:56 PM
    They MINSTER have no dealing here at the location of parking and all of a sudden put some signs up recently about no parking etc. Are they allowed to do this issue a PCN this way taking photos of the car with a handheld camera device to then issue a postal PCN.?
    A PPC is allowed to issue a postal PCN. It is also the NTK. It is frustrating to be done in this way as potentially you could throw a crucial piece of evidence, the ticket, prior to receiving the PCN (NTK). POFA Schedule 4 2012 rules still apply but are slightly different in this scenario in terms of timings.

    You say signs have recently gone up at the car park. Think I remember seeing that the BPA code of Practice mentions about changes/initial setup of signs.

    NTK and PCN ->
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i72y9pjn7i6wvni/AACOHcTM4O6zHeU0KITH-m0oa?dl=0
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Dec 17, 7:07 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:07 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:07 PM
    all land in this country is owned by somebody and there has been a major change in parking over the last 5 to 7 years , hence why its harder to find anywhere to park without payment or getting a ticket

    its driver beware , and comply with the signage , whatever that may be

    not all companies follow POFA2012, for some strange reason the "England and Wales" government did not make it mandatory , although perhaps they should have , nor did they bring in a CoP of their own or a regulatory body to oversee it either

    if it fails POFA2012, then its better for the keeper as they can hide behind POFA and say , "not me m8 , FRO - no keeper liability"

    but you must appeal it using the blue text template , same as the others , as KEEPER

    they can issue one , ten , or ten thousand tickets, there are no limits and each ticket is a potential profit , profit drives these companies - it is what it is

    this is why we ask people to complain to their local MP and get that MP to support the private members bill going through parliament , by Sir Greg Knight , late feb or early march 2018
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 7:17 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    • #6
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:17 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:17 PM
    A PPC is allowed to issue a postal PCN. It is also the NTK. It is frustrating to be done in this way as potentially you could throw a crucial piece of evidence, the ticket, prior to receiving the PCN (NTK). POFA Schedule 4 2012 rules still apply but are slightly different in this scenario in terms of timings.
    Originally posted by claxtome
    im not exaclty sure what you mean by this part ? if you can elaborte of my scenario and their lette please?
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 7:22 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    • #7
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:22 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:22 PM
    if it fails POFA2012, then its better for the keeper as they can hide behind POFA and say , "not me m8 , FRO - no keeper liability"
    Originally posted by Redx
    what are main POFA failure point by the PPC? and what is FRO?

    but you must appeal it using the blue text template , same as the others , as KEEPER
    Originally posted by Redx
    can i not add further points such no oberstaion/issue time. no yellows . Minster have no dealing here and issueing tickets for the purposeof issuing etc.
    if i snd the blue letter as is, as 100% they always get rejected or not even looked at.

    If they can issue as many, moy worry is another might be in the post as the driver has parked there on few occasions. oh dear. this is soo bloody frustring... wish i could see this warden face to face and have some words.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Dec 17, 7:26 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:26 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:26 PM
    you need to compare the NTK to the law named POFA2012 and check for compliance

    if they fail compliance then as keeper you are not liable for the parking charge , if they adhere to pofa2012 then you can be held liable under the law named pofa2012

    you can add to that template if you want to about any non-compliance but there is no guarantee they will read it whatever you write

    the aim is to get a popla code and then use all the ammo you can at popla, the newbies sticky thread tells you all this

    I will not be explaining FRO but you can use 2 fingers to guess what it means

    yellow lines mean something on public roads, they have no weight on private roads although a judge could deem its common sense and standard practice not to park on them

    I would suggest that you get pictures of the signage so we can see what it says because the parking contract with the driver totally depends on them
    Last edited by Redx; 06-12-2017 at 7:39 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 7:49 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    • #9
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:49 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Dec 17, 7:49 PM
    as claxtome has hyperlinked my URL of their letter see above- it does seem the POFA wording to be okay, saying the keeper will be liable if no dirver or address is idetified.

    i was just trying to find out the main POFA points they need to comply with which the PPC usually fail on.

    haha FRO - got ya

    il get some pics tomorrow.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Dec 17, 7:54 PM
    • 4,757 Posts
    • 3,107 Thanks
    KeithP
    i was just trying to find out the main POFA points they need to comply with which the PPC usually fail on.
    Originally posted by azz007
    This is spelt out in post #1 of the NEWBIES sticky thread.
    Look for the bold text - Want to dig deeper?
    .
    • azz007
    • By azz007 6th Dec 17, 8:06 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    This is spelt out in post #1 of the NEWBIES sticky thread.
    Look for the bold text - Want to dig deeper?
    Originally posted by KeithP
    one thing ive noticed is that POFA states on PARA 9,2,f.

    warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
    (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
    (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;


    So why do the PPC stated if after days etc etc...
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Dec 17, 8:14 PM
    • 4,757 Posts
    • 3,107 Thanks
    KeithP
    So why do the PPC stated if after days etc etc...
    Originally posted by azz007
    You've quoted from the legislation - "[The notice must] warn the keeper" - that's why.

    But if I've not understood your question, then perhaps you need to be more explicit - e.g. maybe expand on "etc etc..."
    Last edited by KeithP; 06-12-2017 at 8:17 PM.
    .
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 6th Dec 17, 8:30 PM
    • 341 Posts
    • 341 Thanks
    claxtome
    To breakdown the paragraph of mine from post #4 you questioned as not sure which part you are not sure about ->

    A PPC is allowed to issue a postal PCN. It is also the NTK.
    The postal PCN is also your Notice to Keeper(NTK).
    They pay to get the Registered keeper details from DVLA.

    It is frustrating to be done in this way as potentially you could throw a crucial piece of evidence, the ticket, prior to receiving the PCN (NTK).
    As you didn't receive a PCN attached to the windscreen and don't receive your PCN through the post after a few days potentially you would have thrown the ticket you had paid for.

    POFA Schedule 4 2012 rules still apply but are slightly different in this scenario in terms of timings.
    Protection of Freedom Act (POFA) 2012 Schedule 4, as has been explained already but just to reiterate it, outlines the parking rules a PPC should follow to be able to chase the Keeper of the vehicle for an alleged parking offence.
    Last edited by claxtome; 06-12-2017 at 9:41 PM. Reason: Make post easier to understand
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 8:56 AM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    You've quoted from the legislation - "[The notice must] warn the keeper" - that's why.

    But if I've not understood your question, then perhaps you need to be more explicit - e.g. maybe expand on "etc etc..."
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Yes the quote from legislation states after 28 days , keeper liabilty could apply.

    But on the letter i got they said after 29 days ....
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 9:02 AM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 9:01 AM
    • 1,166 Posts
    • 1,204 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    It states after teh end of the period of 28 days. WHich would be 29 days
    As long as they have said 29 days from date given, theyre right. Or 28 days from the day after, theyre right. Its the same period. As long as the same overall period is given I would be surprised if any judge would state thee is an issue there.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 9:02 AM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    got a picture of the sign,
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i72y9pjn7i6wvni/AACOHcTM4O6zHeU0KITH-m0oa?dl=0

    there is another exat the same, but says 'maximium parking time 30minutes'. couldnt get a pic of that one

    they just have a few of these scattered about.. small sqaured signs
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 9:12 AM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 9:11 AM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    How long after event was the NTK dated? Important.
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 9:14 AM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    How long after event was the NTK dated? Important.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    it was well within 14 days..

    date of contravention 29/11
    issue date 04/12.
    recieved 6th/12

    what really bugs me is that they shoudlnt even be issuing tickets on this part of the land., they operate on the other side car park for Mecca Bingo which has ANPR camera.

    they have no business on this side ... soo annoying.,
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 9:23 AM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    it was well within 14 days..

    date of contravention 29/11
    issue date 04/12.
    recieved 6th/12

    what really bugs me is that they shoudlnt even be issuing tickets on this part of the land., they operate on the other side car park for Mecca Bingo which has ANPR camera.

    they have no business on this side
    ... soo annoying.,
    Originally posted by azz007
    Who owns the land and how do you know that?
    • azz007
    • By azz007 7th Dec 17, 9:36 AM
    • 72 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    azz007
    Who owns the land and how do you know that?
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    well theres a mecca bingo centre(monitored by MINSTER)
    NHS walking centre (their own little car park) is monitored by UKPC.
    there is also a Hairdressers no parking restrictions from them.
    so can guratnee Minster dont own the land.

    if you look on the link above, ^^
    its just open land where the driver was parked with the vehicle circle in red. thats not my car btw as i took that this morning... and looking around. a dozen of cars are still parking hee
    Last edited by azz007; 07-12-2017 at 4:27 PM.
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