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  • FIRST POST
    • KWas
    • By KWas 6th Dec 17, 8:48 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    KWas
    ParkingEye Response to Defence Stage
    • #1
    • 6th Dec 17, 8:48 AM
    ParkingEye Response to Defence Stage 6th Dec 17 at 8:48 AM
    Hello,

    Firstly I'd like to thank the guys that take time to respond and create threads on here to help newbies out with their claims.

    Let me give a background on my position; I received the standard £100 fine letter a month or so after the driver stayed on a ParkingEye operated car park for 4hrs and 14 minutes after paying for 4 hours. I work full time whilst doing a degree, I've not really had a great deal of free time to investigate this much further than I have. The automated letters continued to follow (which I now know I wrongly ignored) until the Claim Form came through. I've read through previous threads including the newbies one, I acknowledged the claim before sending the skeleton defence through as shown on the newbies thread. I'm currently at the stage where ParkingEye have sent their 20-odd page reply to my defence.

    Within my defence I did not confirm to whether I was driving the vehicle, and stated that no assumptions should be made.

    I was hoping that someone could help to guide me from here.

    The land is owned by a pension fund which is operated by the council, I've seen unsucessful negotiations with this specific car park online, so I highly doubt that they would support my case by asking them to stop ParkingEye's claim.

    I've looked at some responses using the Parking Prankster's guides, however I feel as though it could be outdated as some mention that they didn't receive a letter before county court claim, warranting a stay on the claim. However, I received this letter.

    I was wondering whether there was anything else I could do before proceeding to filling in my copy of the directions questionnaire (when or if I receive one) and going to court. If there is, how do I go about responding now? If my chances look slim, I'd rather try to negotiate paying the £100 rather than the £175, as I don't think they are able to claim their £50 solicitors costs and the £25 court claim issue fee.

    I apologise if I have been ignorant and missed something already posted which would help me progress. Many thanks in advance for anyone who responds.

    Cheers
    Last edited by KWas; 07-12-2017 at 8:55 AM.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 6th Dec 17, 10:05 AM
    • 33,521 Posts
    • 17,405 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 10:05 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Dec 17, 10:05 AM
    Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.

    You need to edit your op to remove details of who was driving (assuming you haven't already informed the PPC who was driving)
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Dec 17, 12:29 PM
    • 4,753 Posts
    • 3,094 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:29 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:29 PM
    I would remove the sentence beginning "The reason for lateness is..." from your post.

    It adds nothing and it could be interpreted as the keeper and driver are the same person.
    .
    • KWas
    • By KWas 7th Dec 17, 7:41 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    KWas
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 7:41 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 7:41 AM
    OP amended, cheers guys.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    • 1,166 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:03 AM
    What exactly does your defence state?
    There is no skeleton defence. There is ONE defence. However if you raised Grace Periods - and you should have done! - then you havea good chance. The BPA CoP states tehre are TWO periods, one at the end of at least 10 minutes, and one at the start. The 4 hours does not start until after this point

    If the NtK came within 14 days, then chances are they complied with POFA.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 7th Dec 17, 8:08 AM
    • 334 Posts
    • 334 Thanks
    claxtome
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:08 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:08 AM
    14 mins over and above your paid time can easily be explained in terms of 2 grace periods.
    Look this up in the BPA Cod of Practice (CoP).
    The first grace period whilst you found a parking space; the second whilst leaving the car park.
    (Usually 10 mins is allowed in either scenario)

    I think you have a good defence for your case.

    I am a little confused by what stage you are up to and think your opening post has some slight errors in terminology.
    For instance you mention->
    The automated letters continued to follow (which I now know I wrongly ignored) until the PCN came through.
    Surely PCN should be Letter Before Claim (LBC) as the PCN is the Parking Charge Notice (first letter you receive)?

    I think you have submitted your defence and you say you have received theirs.
    Is that correct?
    • KWas
    • By KWas 7th Dec 17, 9:06 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    KWas
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:06 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:06 AM
    Thanks for your posts.

    The defence is the one which can be found on post 1 on the newbies thread, highlighting insufficient lettering.

    Thanks for pointing that out claxtome, I've changed my OP. You're right, I've submitted my defence and received both a copy of their directions questionnaire, where they have stated that they do not wish for the case to be referred to the Small Claims Mediation Service, along with their response letter to my defence.

    I considered mentioning the grace period, but I was under the impression that it was 10 minutes total, meaning I'd gone over by 4. Do you think it would be best for me to attempt mediation with ParkingEye mentioning my case for my allowed grace period or leave it for court?

    Thanks again
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 9:07 AM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,387 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:07 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:07 AM
    Am I missing something here.

    Parking Eye usually operate ANPR sites, so no windscreen ticket. You say you received the NTK about a month after event. ANPR cases only have 14 days to send an NTK.

    All that being correct, you simply state that as keeper, they have lost the right to transfer liability to you and you decline to name driver.

    What have I missed?
    • KWas
    • By KWas 7th Dec 17, 9:13 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    KWas
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:13 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:13 AM
    That's right,

    There was no windscreen ticket. The date of the event was 02/05/17 and the first letter I received from ParkingEye was on the 12/06/17.

    Is it as simple as that?

    Thanks
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 9:20 AM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,387 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    That's right,

    There was no windscreen ticket. The date of the event was 02/05/17 and the first letter I received from ParkingEye was on the 12/06/17.

    Is it as simple as that?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by KWas
    Could be if the letter was an NTK and not a reminder to an NTK that had "gone missing in the post".

    However, PE do, I read on here, send out non-POFA NTKs that don't rely on keeper liability claiming they are presuming the keeper is the driver. There are some threads on here describing the difference and how to deal, and I hope that a regular with experience of the nuances can help you.

    In the meantime, you will remember that you car share and often don't drive the car yourself as you are working on your laptop/tablet/phone to do last minute work in the car while one of the sharers drives.
    • KWas
    • By KWas 7th Dec 17, 10:09 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    KWas
    Thanks Guys Dad,

    Apologies, but I failed to mention that the original letters were sent to an old address (which has not been updated on the DVLA), the dates I gave were based on those original letters, however they found my new address (using a credit reference agency) and started the chain of letters again on 05/07/17. So I think they will have escaped the 14 day requirement.

    I've read the BPA CoP and would just like to clarify for any other readers in a similar predicament regarding "grace period":

    Appendix B, Section B2.1(e) states:
    vehicles that have paid for parking and visibly display a payment ticket but have overstayed the ‘paid-for’ time displayed on the ticket by less than 5 minutes −unless they are committing some other breach of the regulations. You may only issue parking tickets after the 5-minute ‘grace’ period has run out.

    Appendix B, Section B6.2 (Regarding ANPR - Automatic Number Plate Recognition) states:
    If you provide parking facilities to the general public for a fee, your system must allow drivers who have not paid the fee to leave a site within 10 minutes of entering, without having their vehicle registration mark processed for a parking charge.


    Therefore, it appears as though if a ticket is purchased, 5 minutes grace period is permitted. However, if no ticket is purchased, 10 minutes is permitted.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 11:34 AM
    • 15,918 Posts
    • 24,674 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Apologies, but I failed to mention that the original letters were sent to an old address (which has not been updated on the DVLA), the dates I gave were based on those original letters, however they found my new address (using a credit reference agency) and started the chain of letters again on 05/07/17. So I think they will have escaped the 14 day requirement.
    Have you got the original NtK sent to the former address? I don’t think that the period of 14 days changes just because of bad service. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is clear that it’s 14 days from the day following the parking event.

    If you haven’t updated your V5C (log book) and driving licence - 2 separate notifications, then you should do so urgently. The driving licence update carries a £1,000 fine if not carried out quickly.

    I've read the BPA CoP and would just like to clarify for any other readers in a similar predicament regarding "grace period":

    Appendix B, Section B2.1(e) states:
    vehicles that have paid for parking and visibly display a payment ticket but have overstayed the ‘paid-for’ time displayed on the ticket by less than 5 minutes −unless they are committing some other breach of the regulations. You may only issue parking tickets after the 5-minute ‘grace’ period has run out.

    Appendix B, Section B6.2 (Regarding ANPR - Automatic Number Plate Recognition) states:
    If you provide parking facilities to the general public for a fee, your system must allow drivers who have not paid the fee to leave a site within 10 minutes of entering, without having their vehicle registration mark processed for a parking charge.


    Therefore, it appears as though if a ticket is purchased, 5 minutes grace period is permitted. However, if no ticket is purchased, 10 minutes is permitted.
    Which version of the Code of Practice are you reading? Appendix B is all about signage.

    It’s Clause 13 of Section A which covers Grace Periods.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 11:42 AM
    • 1,166 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    OK, can we rewind a bit here?

    POst 1 does not contain a defence. It contains an APPEAL, in blue.

    OP, please post here, the exact "defence" you submitted. Word for word. Because if you sent the appeal on post 1, you have a lot of work to do now

    In terms of valid arguments, unless you have already raised them you cannot add them to your defence now. PE will object and say you need to pay £255 to amend your defence
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