Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 5th Dec 17, 8:12 PM
    • 47Posts
    • 73Thanks
    Skyrage
    Virgin Defence: Have I ruined my chance?
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:12 PM
    Virgin Defence: Have I ruined my chance? 5th Dec 17 at 8:12 PM
    Hi, only just found about this site of successful help and have already sent a terrible defence in your eyes, what should I do next?

    Have parked in a patrons only car park of the village hall. All you use to have to do was enter your car reg on paper at the desk when you used the facilities.

    It got took over by parking eye, dropping my son off to his club as normal, I drove in at 17.58 & left at 18.15 missing all the new parking signage. My son never entered our reg into what would normally be the book.

    Now I did ignore all letters until I got the Claim Form N1, so I replied what would seem to be a typical rubbish reply explaining i was allowed to be there, I didn't agree with being penalised for actually being there for the correct purpose blah blah blah.

    Now have received a 16 page reply to defence & A notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track form, can I do anything now I have submitted a pathetic weak defence?

    Thankyou
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Dec 17, 8:38 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,993 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:38 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:38 PM
    very difficult now

    what you seem to have submitted in the defence section is actually a witness statement

    a defence is based on legal arguments , the witness statement like you provided comes after the DQ stage

    it will cost you a lot of money to resubmit a better defence
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 5th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    Skyrage
    • #3
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:47 PM


    So what's my best plan of action?

    Ring them & pay the now £175 fees?

    Fill out the form to go to mediation or court?

    I have never had to deal with a car park charge before so did what I thought best & shot myself in the backside by the looks of it

    These companies are wretched & im a stressed out insomniac worrying how I'm going to pay them
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Dec 17, 8:54 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,993 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:54 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:54 PM
    even if you lost in court you may pay £175 of less , so pointless paying up

    mediation never works

    read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread at the top of this forum , it has a timeline of events by bargepole

    offering to settle out of court might work, for a sum much less than £175

    most people have not been through this legal process either , you are not alone

    what surprises me is that you have been a member here 8 years and this is the first time you have posted about it , after the fact and after the time when we could have helped with your defence
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 5th Dec 17, 9:03 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #5
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:03 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:03 PM
    When I last got a PE ticket in a hotel, the signs merely said register (not how to register). That may assist.

    If you compare that with some of the other PE signs (all freely available on Google images) that say register by typing reg. Into vehicle terminal, you may have the beginnings of an argument on signage.

    It's hard to know with small claims: decent statements could salvage it. Frankly amazed they've gone to the cost of doing an optional reply. That's no doubt to try and "make sure" of them winning. Post the links.
    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 5th Dec 17, 9:13 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    Skyrage
    • #6
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:13 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:13 PM
    even if you lost in court you may pay £175 of less , so pointless paying up

    mediation never works

    read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread at the top of this forum , it has a timeline of events by bargepole

    offering to settle out of court might work, for a sum much less than £175

    most people have not been through this legal process either , you are not alone

    what surprises me is that you have been a member here 8 years and this is the first time you have posted about it , after the fact and after the time when we could have helped with your defence
    Originally posted by Redx
    The last time I used this site was on the 02/11/2011

    So apologies after all that time that when I received the county court claim form I let my panic of not replying fast enough come before thinking, I know I will approach the non judgemental guru's of the MSE forum for help.
    Had I of thought about it sooner I wouldn't be asking for the help I am now

    I did read the F&Q's but must admit didn't find it an easy read but will read again.

    Thankyou
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 5th Dec 17, 9:22 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    Skyrage
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:22 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 17, 9:22 PM
    When I last got a PE ticket in a hotel, the signs merely said register (not how to register). That may assist.

    If you compare that with some of the other PE signs (all freely available on Google images) that say register by typing reg. Into vehicle terminal, you may have the beginnings of an argument on signage.

    It's hard to know with small claims: decent statements could salvage it. Frankly amazed they've gone to the cost of doing an optional reply. That's no doubt to try and "make sure" of them winning. Post the links.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    It states ***** village hall patrons must enter their full correct vehicle reg into the terminal at reception to be entitled to free parking for the duration of the stay.

    In my defence where I drove in the only two signs about this new parking firm were on the passenger side out of my view as I drove in & where I pulled in. I literally drove into the nearest space as I normally do, made a quick call & sent a text, I was in there for 16 minutes with all the signs behind me which again were all behind me when I reversed & drove out.

    What's an optional reply & post what links?
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 5th Dec 17, 10:06 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 17, 10:06 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 17, 10:06 PM
    The claimant did not need to do a reply to your defence. They incurred additional cost drafting it, no doubt to try and make the most of your "thin" defence.

    Ideally if you scan/smartphone photograph key documents (concealing personal info) it makes it easier to try and help. They'll need to be stored in the cloud - something like Dropbox (Google it if unfamiliar with how it all works).
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Dec 17, 10:30 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,993 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 17, 10:30 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 17, 10:30 PM
    as the parking contract depended on the signage , which you have queried , then read the BPA CoP about such signage , including NEW signage and any "bedding in" periods
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • logician
    • By logician 9th Dec 17, 7:20 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    logician
    even if you lost in court you may pay £175 of less , so pointless paying up

    mediation never works
    Originally posted by Redx
    Don't forget the added £25 for the hearing fee.

    Mediation can and does work for some PE cases as does making a WP offer separately

    The claimant did not need to do a reply to your defence. They incurred additional cost drafting it, no doubt to try and make the most of your "thin" defence.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    Nothing to do with a 'thin' defence - Parking Eye's modus operandi is to always do a reply to the defence.

    I can guarantee that most of this will be templated - many pages seen in every case.
    TAKE PITY ON THOSE BLIND BADGERS

    FOR EVERYONE ELSE - THERE IS SPECSAVERS*

    * NB OTHER REPUTABLE OPTICIANS ARE AVAILABLE
    THE POSTER DOES NOT ENDORSE ANY ONE OPTICIAN
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Dec 17, 7:43 PM
    • 51,672 Posts
    • 65,331 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK so why not find out from the Hotel when PE started there, and if it was mere weeks/a couple of months before the parking event, you can use as part of your evidence with your Witness Statement, the lack of additional signs alerting people to the change of rules. This is a condition of the BPA Code and Practice and something that it seems PE like to ignore (e.g. when they took over Asda sites from Smart parking, and changed various free parking times AFAIK, they didn't put up additional signs to draw the changes to the attention of people familiar with the old rules).

    BPA CoP here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

    18.11 Where there is any change in the terms and conditions that
    materially affects the motorist then you should make these
    clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability
    where none previously existed then you should consider
    a grace period to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust
    and familiarise themselves with the changes.
    Also read the Grace Periods section of the Code.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 9th Dec 17, 10:48 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    Skyrage
    OK so why not find out from the Hotel when PE started there, and if it was mere weeks/a couple of months before the parking event, you can use as part of your evidence with your Witness Statement, the lack of additional signs alerting people to the change of rules. This is a condition of the BPA Code and Practice and something that it seems PE like to ignore (e.g. when they took over Asda sites from Smart parking, and changed various free parking times AFAIK, they didn't put up additional signs to draw the changes to the attention of people familiar with the old rules).

    BPA CoP here:

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf



    Also read the Grace Periods section of the Code.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thankyou for that information. It could only of been a maximum of 7 days as I am there every Monday at the same time to drop him off.

    The car park is relatively small & if I have done this correctly here is the link to the photo they included &I I have white lined my route into my space & out, the first sign is on my left entering out of my view in my opinion as I was concentrating on my right turn into space & again in my space the sign was above eye level on the post to the left of me aimed at the disabled spaces with appropriate signage. So with no reason to think the rules had changed I was clearly not going to notice these pathetic attempts to clearly mark out a new parking scheme.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/80nvwyz1etppcay/AABU8rXUq1ZQ2s840QJMW84ia?dl=0
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Dec 17, 11:55 PM
    • 51,672 Posts
    • 65,331 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    ParkingEye have invited you to supply evidence of your patronage, so to play the game and look reasonable, I would do that. Ask the village hall owners/person in charge, to confirm in writing that your son attends xxxxxxx club every week, and ask them also to confirm on what date the signs/regulations changed, and also ask them to confirm to their knowledge, how many patrons were caught out over the Summer, and finally ask them to state that they do not support this charge against your family/you, as regular patrons.

    The village hall doesn't have to provide the above, but all of it would prove very useful to you as evidence. So lay it on thick about the distress of getting a court claim over this and how the signs were not clear and you need them to confirm a few things to support you as patrons/customers, against this unfair charge.

    Have PE only included copies of sign type 1 and sign type 3?

    The latter is for Blue Badge Holders only, therefore those terms do not relate to you and cannot have created a contract with you, when parking in that bay adjacent to those Blue Badge signs.

    If they haven't shown a copy of the sign that's non-Blue Badge Holders, DO NOT tip PE off, keep that under your hat ready for the hearing.

    If you are at Directions Questionnaire stage (i.e. you've got YOUR copy N180 from the court, not from PE), the way to fill that in is explained in the NEWBIES thread post #2 in a post by bargepole about what to do when. e.g. say NO to Mediation.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Skyrage
    • By Skyrage 10th Dec 17, 1:01 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    Skyrage
    No unfortunately they have included signage type two but I didn't upload the picture as you can see these signs were not in my view driving in or driving out.

    I probably had to drive into the worst space that might actually save my bacon in the end hopefully.

    Great advice, I will see if the village hall or club manager can pen me a witness statement to help my witness statement.

    All this for 16 minutes, it's wicked, I knew double yellow lines outside was the way to go
    If you don't have anything productive, positive or nice to say maybe you should button it for a short while!
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 10th Dec 17, 9:05 AM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    Johnersh
    The rules change and BPA guidelines for this (see above), plus the fact you didn't leave car so would not have even seen a computer terminal or other signs inside the building, give you an argument. I'd personally run that argument were I in your shoes, but...

    on a strict interpretation do be aware that you did park and the signs are there. So it's at least conceivable a DJ could go the other way.

    I would add that even if PE were to win the case, unless they prove the small print is readable on the signs and that it entitles them to any more than £100, then that's all they're having. The Dropbox images (and hopefully their evidence pack) are illegible in that aspect.
    • logician
    • By logician 10th Dec 17, 2:13 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    logician
    .

    It got took over by parking eye, dropping my son off to his club as normal, I drove in at 17.58 & left at 18.15 missing all the new parking signage. My son never entered our reg into what would normally be the book.
    Originally posted by Skyrage

    Did you put you were dropping your son off as normal in the actual defence?

    Unloading/Loading and by similar definition "dropping off" are not considered 'parking' - Jopson v Homeguard


    Points to expand are as covered by others:

    New parking regime - no sign seen by driver on the relevant date as your son/you regularly attend - so genuine patron
    driver dropping off passenger - interrupted by then needing to make a phone call
    grace period
    query the accuracy of the ANPR - calibration
    No prompting made by staff for your son to input vehicle registration*


    * it is a typical clause in contracts of this nature that PE are responsible for training staff at the locations
    TAKE PITY ON THOSE BLIND BADGERS

    FOR EVERYONE ELSE - THERE IS SPECSAVERS*

    * NB OTHER REPUTABLE OPTICIANS ARE AVAILABLE
    THE POSTER DOES NOT ENDORSE ANY ONE OPTICIAN
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Dec 17, 2:28 PM
    • 51,672 Posts
    • 65,331 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No unfortunately they have included signage type two but I didn't upload the picture as you can see these signs were not in my view driving in or driving out.

    I probably had to drive into the worst space that might actually save my bacon in the end hopefully.

    Great advice, I will see if the village hall or club manager can pen me a witness statement to help my witness statement.

    All this for 16 minutes, it's wicked, I knew double yellow lines outside was the way to go
    Originally posted by Skyrage
    Double yellows outside on street (as long as there are no yellow kerb blips indicating a loading ban in operation) are free when loading/unloading and dropping off passengers. Next time, avoid private car parks like the plague.

    Certainly the 'Blue Badge Holders only' sign, does not relate to you, and because the car park is marked out as it is, they should have put some signs type 2 in view from where you parked. They didn't. AND because it was a new regime the BPA CoP says they should have allowed a period of grace, and/or added extra signs to communicate the change.

    It could only of been a maximum of 7 days as I am there every Monday at the same time to drop him off.
    Failure to draw terms to attention, fails to create a contract at all.

    You can argue at Witness Statement/evidence stage (or in a separate Skeleton Argument) that the signage contained new, unexpected and (as it turns out) onerous terms, not sufficiently drawn to the attention of the driver, as set out in the leading judgment of Denning MR in J Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] EWCA Civ 3.

    With PE, you can also email them and point out they have no cause of action, failed to allow a sufficient Grace Period, and failed to place additional signs at that space (show them your line drawing). Also throw in that a car dropping off a passenger for the minutes that takes to ensure a child is safely delivered into adjacent premises, is not parked:

    enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

    Expect to be fobbed off, more than once. But keep at them, reply EVERY time, telling them they have no cause of action and reiterating the arguments mentioned by me, Redx and Johnersh already.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,867Posts Today

7,322Users online

Martin's Twitter