Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • SteelBlonde
    • By SteelBlonde 5th Dec 17, 3:01 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 3Thanks
    SteelBlonde
    A little help.....
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 17, 3:01 PM
    A little help..... 5th Dec 17 at 3:01 PM
    Hi all


    Firstly, I have read most of the newbies sticky on this topic but still feel I need a bit of advice. Be gentle!


    Whilst dropping and collecting my son from a bowling party on a small retail park I have been clobbered for two (!) parking charge notices via ANPR......... ie one for dropping off and another when collecting 2 hours later. This was at a car park I hadn't used for a while and the system had changed..... it is now operated by Smart Parking Ltd.


    Whilst dropping off I left my mum (who is a blue badge holder) and daughter in the car and dropped/sorted son..... I was in and out of the car park in (unfortunately) just over 10 mins.
    When collecting, I stayed with my car and daughter and my mum did the honours but took a while longer...... 20 mins as per the cameras.
    Not realising the change or noticing the signs, I didn't obviously buy any tickets as thought someone was with the car and could move if needed!


    So..... with the 28 day period coming up and me not being happy with the prospect of paying £180 before xmas..... I was wondering if I have a viable choice???


    There is signage, although the 'Terms' board I feel has small lettering (I've taken pics). The bowling venue say they can't quash it. I've thought about appealing as my mum took a long time as she is less abled but don't obviously want to admit that I was driving! Even thought about offering to pay one charge in total at the lower rate of £54 as a compromise???!


    Thoughts????
Page 1
    • muleskinner
    • By muleskinner 5th Dec 17, 3:13 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    muleskinner
    • #2
    • 5th Dec 17, 3:13 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Dec 17, 3:13 PM
    What are the terms displayed?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Dec 17, 3:34 PM
    • 15,951 Posts
    • 24,742 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 5th Dec 17, 3:34 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Dec 17, 3:34 PM
    Who did what/Blue Badge/birthday party/bowling alley are irrelevant - sorry, not trying to be harsh, but often the ‘trimmings’ can get in the way of dealing with this surgically.

    I suspect that you were required to enter your car’s registration number for each entry, either at a P&D ticket machine or in (one or any of) the outlets serviced by the car park. This would then link with the ANPR data to check for overstays (or those who did not comply with the requirements).

    Smart have been late in sending out their NtKs of late, so could you give us the following:

    1. Date of parking event.
    2. Date shown on the two NtKs you’ve received.
    3. Dates of receipt of the two NtKs.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • SteelBlonde
    • By SteelBlonde 5th Dec 17, 11:35 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SteelBlonde
    • #4
    • 5th Dec 17, 11:35 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Dec 17, 11:35 PM
    Many thanks.


    The description of events was to provide further information in case there was another way of avoiding the fine!


    Date of contravention was 29/10/17
    Date shown on NtK letters was 10/11/17
    Date I received/opened letters was 16/11/17 (I had been away for a few days)


    I can post a pic of the 'Terms' board if that helps???
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 5th Dec 17, 11:51 PM
    • 611 Posts
    • 1,571 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #5
    • 5th Dec 17, 11:51 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Dec 17, 11:51 PM
    Smart don't attempt to hold vehicles' keepers liable for their parking charges. Even if they did, these particular PCNs were delivered beyond the relevant period specified under Paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 of POFA (i.e. the 14 days 30/10/17 - 12/11/17).

    These will be easy wins so long as you don't spill the beans about who was driving. However, you'll need to get your skates on to get your initial "appeals" into Smart - you can do this via their website.

    Check out the Newbies Sticky thread on this Forum and use the blue template.
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 06-12-2017 at 12:02 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Dec 17, 5:46 AM
    • 15,951 Posts
    • 24,742 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 6th Dec 17, 5:46 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Dec 17, 5:46 AM
    Follow Edna Basher’s advice re getting in your initial appeals. It’s a simple copy and paste exercise, no additions/edits please. Follow precisely the method required by Smart for the submission of the appeals - if there’s an electronic option, use it.

    Very important - you must deal with each charge separately. Do not appeal both in the same document. Two separate ones, right the way through the appeals process.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • SteelBlonde
    • By SteelBlonde 6th Dec 17, 11:41 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SteelBlonde
    • #7
    • 6th Dec 17, 11:41 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Dec 17, 11:41 AM
    Thanks guys.


    Just appealed both (separately!) using the blue template, cut and pasted for the Smart online system.


    Reading the PoFA paragraphs, I do think they may have fallen outside of the 14 day written notice period - if you consider the letters probably arrived at a weekend and add the 2 working day period after posting?!


    Cheers
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Dec 17, 12:42 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #8
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:42 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:42 PM
    Its all about when the docs are received. Having an isue date that cannot possibly meet the 14 days is helpful, but otherwise a witness statememt stating when the docs are receivedd is sufficient evidence.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 6th Dec 17, 12:45 PM
    • 2,393 Posts
    • 2,918 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #9
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:45 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Dec 17, 12:45 PM
    While all this is going on ....... have you complained to the bowling alley ?

    and let them know that you will make sure ALL the parents of the youngsters visiting that day will be informed of this hounding of customers ....

    Ralph
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 6th Dec 17, 1:23 PM
    • 611 Posts
    • 1,571 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Reading the PoFA paragraphs, I do think they may have fallen outside of the 14 day written notice period.
    Originally posted by SteelBlonde
    Indeed they did. According to POFA, the notices are deemed to have been delivered on the second working day after the day on which they were posted (unless the contrary is proved).

    Even if we assume that Smart posted the notices on Friday 10th November, they would be deemed to have been delivered on Tuesday 14th November (i.e. two days after the end of the relevant period).
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 6th Dec 17, 5:33 PM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Its all about when the docs are received. Having an isue date that cannot possibly meet the 14 days is helpful, but otherwise a witness statememt stating when the docs are receivedd is sufficient evidence.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    WRONG.

    POFA deems delivery 2 working days after posting, no mention of when actually received. Check it out!

    OP is 100% right, along with others, in saying that the NtK is out of time.

    A simple one point appeal on that point is all that should be needed and clogging it up with a generic appeal is not helpful.

    When you have a "Golden ticket" such as out of time, forget the speculative generic appeal. Just make sure you spell out the dates and why it fails to the PPC.

    Coupon-Mad, who wrote the sticky, agrees with this advice too.
    • SteelBlonde
    • By SteelBlonde 7th Dec 17, 1:22 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SteelBlonde
    Thanks Guys Dad.


    However, I have already appealed both using the template on the Smart online system. I did add a reference to the PoFA 14 notice being out of date but didn't specify dates. Can I send additional info now or do I wait for a return and then do it via POPLA?


    I have contacted the bowling venue and spoke to the manager who said they can't quash the ticket..... as they're not the land owners??!


    Cheers
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 3:22 PM
    • 16,936 Posts
    • 21,065 Thanks
    Redx
    wait for a reply or replies from not so smart
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 4:50 PM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Thanks Guys Dad.


    However, I have already appealed both using the template on the Smart online system. I did add a reference to the PoFA 14 notice being out of date but didn't specify dates. Can I send additional info now or do I wait for a return and then do it via POPLA?


    I have contacted the bowling venue and spoke to the manager who said they can't quash the ticket..... as they're not the land owners??!


    Cheers
    Originally posted by SteelBlonde
    Depends upon your own view.

    I would wait till POPLA and cost them £27.. But you might get it to go away if you appeal a second time with the one point, giving the dates and mentioning 15 days do not include the weekend for delivery and spelling out the POFA provisions. They may decide to save the £27.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 5:07 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    WRONG.

    POFA deems delivery 2 working days after posting, no mention of when actually received. Check it out!
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    No, it simply copies the presumption of service from the Interpretations Act. This can be rebutted, and HAS BEEN in PE cases where we KNOW they do not enter the normal course of post on date of issue.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 5:10 PM
    • 10,253 Posts
    • 9,388 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    No, it simply copies the presumption of service from the Interpretations Act. This can be rebutted, and HAS BEEN in PE cases where we KNOW they do not enter the normal course of post on date of issue.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Well this is POFA section 9
    (4)The notice must be given by—
    (a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
    (b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
    (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
    (6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
    Seems pretty clear to me.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 6:22 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, presumed. Exactly as I said

    A witness statement is evidence to the contrary, and would prove it. Of course, as long as the witness is seen as credible.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,228Posts Today

6,080Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @bearface83: @MartinSLewis check out the @Missguided new 60% off offer. Upping the cost of items almost double to make us think it?s a?

  • RT @efitzpat: Thank you SO SO much @MartinSLewis for your Student Loans refund advice! I just got a grand refunded right before Xmas! Whoop?

  • Have a lovely weekend folks. Don't do anything (fiscally) that I wouldn't do!

  • Follow Martin