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  • FIRST POST
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 5th Dec 17, 8:44 AM
    • 11,196Posts
    • 15,643Thanks
    Pixie5740
    Lily Allen may be homeless for Christmas
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 17, 8:44 AM
    Lily Allen may be homeless for Christmas 5th Dec 17 at 8:44 AM
    If only she had read G_M's Guide to Tenancies in England & Wales before letting her property. Ho ho ho.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/lily-allen-complains-she-cant-move-wealthy-diplomats-out-her-london-flat-in-time-for-christmas-a3710286.html

    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
Page 2
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 1:35 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    Comms69
    I think it's civil rather than criminal.
    Originally posted by aneary
    Congestion charge is the same as council parking tickets. technically it's criminal as it's a statutory charge, not a private one like you might receive for parking at Sainsbury's.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 5th Dec 17, 1:44 PM
    • 8,606 Posts
    • 5,091 Thanks
    teddysmum
    The whole story is nonsense as the 'diplomat' is an Italian photographer who just asked for an extra two days' stay.
    • aneary
    • By aneary 5th Dec 17, 1:46 PM
    • 799 Posts
    • 699 Thanks
    aneary
    According to the official website if you don't pay enforcement officers can be sent and they are certified by the county court no mention of a criminal offence?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 1:52 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    Comms69
    According to the official website if you don't pay enforcement officers can be sent and they are certified by the county court no mention of a criminal offence?
    Originally posted by aneary


    Yes and no. It's complicated.


    I think it's comparable to the TV licence. (even in criminal courts, if a fine isn't paid, it can be sent to the county courts for enforcement, amongst lots of other things)
    • aneary
    • By aneary 5th Dec 17, 1:55 PM
    • 799 Posts
    • 699 Thanks
    aneary
    Yes and no. It's complicated.


    I think it's comparable to the TV licence. (even in criminal courts, if a fine isn't paid, it can be sent to the county courts for enforcement, amongst lots of other things)
    Originally posted by Comms69
    It's been moved to civil.

    From the house of commons website
    1. THE SPARKS PROGRAMME

    1.1 The SPARKS Programme (Shared Parking and Registered Keeper information Service) is an initiative that enables traffic authorities in the UK and other EU Member States to collaborate and co-operate as they seek to resolve the issue of cross-border enforcement of civil traffic contraventions. The initiative is the creation of London's Enforcement Task Force, a pan-London grouping of organisations that co-ordinates traffic enforcement activities.
    1.2 The Enforcement Task Force comprises Transport for London, London Councils, London Technical Advisors Group (LoTAG), Metropolitan Police Service and City of London Police, as well as representatives from the Drivers and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) and the Vehicle and Operators Services Agency (VOSA).
    1.3 Civil enforcement—also sometimes called "decriminalised enforcement'—involves transferring the responsibility for enforcing road traffic regulations from the police to local government authorities. In the UK it also removes the penalty process from the jurisdiction of the criminal courts and transfers it to the civil arena. The result of the change from the criminal to the civil regime is an effective, computerised and automated process capable of processing high volumes of cases, but which fails when key elements, such as vehicle ownership data, are missing.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 1:58 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,003 Thanks
    Comms69
    It's been moved to civil.

    From the house of commons website
    1. THE SPARKS PROGRAMME

    1.1 The SPARKS Programme (Shared Parking and Registered Keeper information Service) is an initiative that enables traffic authorities in the UK and other EU Member States to collaborate and co-operate as they seek to resolve the issue of cross-border enforcement of civil traffic contraventions. The initiative is the creation of London's Enforcement Task Force, a pan-London grouping of organisations that co-ordinates traffic enforcement activities.
    1.2 The Enforcement Task Force comprises Transport for London, London Councils, London Technical Advisors Group (LoTAG), Metropolitan Police Service and City of London Police, as well as representatives from the Drivers and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) and the Vehicle and Operators Services Agency (VOSA).
    1.3 Civil enforcement—also sometimes called "decriminalised enforcement'—involves transferring the responsibility for enforcing road traffic regulations from the police to local government authorities. In the UK it also removes the penalty process from the jurisdiction of the criminal courts and transfers it to the civil arena. The result of the change from the criminal to the civil regime is an effective, computerised and automated process capable of processing high volumes of cases, but which fails when key elements, such as vehicle ownership data, are missing.
    Originally posted by aneary
    Interesting (and morally questionable) thanks for sharing
    • ThePants999
    • By ThePants999 5th Dec 17, 6:26 PM
    • 895 Posts
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    ThePants999
    FWIW, the US are claiming that the congestion charge is really a tax, which they are exempt from paying.
    • HouseBuyer77
    • By HouseBuyer77 5th Dec 17, 7:26 PM
    • 909 Posts
    • 893 Thanks
    HouseBuyer77
    US example but wikipedia has an example of officials from Zaire not paying rent and the landlord being unable to evict (with the US state department defending the officials): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Rents

    Given diplomatic immunity comes from international law the same scenario may well be possible here.

    So LLs better be beware of diplomats
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 6th Dec 17, 12:05 AM
    • 3,262 Posts
    • 6,000 Thanks
    EachPenny
    Well the US diplomats owe loads in Congestion Charge and Parking Fines Boris says they should pay but the diplomats say they don't have to due to diplomatic immunity so it's a grey area.
    Originally posted by aneary
    From the start the US position was the Congestion Charge was a tax which they are exempt under international law and treaties from paying. TfL have maintaned it is a 'charge', not a tax.

    Hmmmm but congestion charge is a criminal matter isn't it (magistrates court)? Maybe I'm wrong.
    Originally posted by G_M
    It is a contravention not to pay the charge when liable to do so. The contravention is enforced under TfL's civil enforcement powers. Ultimately, TfL can apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (Northampton County Court) for a recovery order and then with a warrant of execution the case would be passed on to bailiffs to extract as many pounds of flesh as they are able (by that stage in the process the amount is eye-watering).

    It's been moved to civil.
    Originally posted by aneary
    Congestion Charging has been civil enforcement from the start. In London the enforcement of parking had already been decriminalised and steps were already being taken to have moving traffic offences transfered as well. Outside of London the same process is happening, but ever so slowly.

    FWIW, the US are claiming that the congestion charge is really a tax, which they are exempt from paying.
    Originally posted by ThePants999
    That's it in a nutshell. As above, it revolves around a dispute over whether it is a 'tax' or a 'charge'.

    The US position is not that they should have immunity from paying the penalty for non payment of the Congestion Charge, but that the charge itself is not applicable to them, because it is a tax.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 6th Dec 17, 7:32 AM
    • 5,532 Posts
    • 4,916 Thanks
    00ec25
    ahhh...the cult of "celebrity" - who is "Lily Allen"?
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