Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 4th Dec 17, 7:59 PM
    • 1,350Posts
    • 1,357Thanks
    Fireflyaway
    'Justice' system makes me sad and mad!!
    • #1
    • 4th Dec 17, 7:59 PM
    'Justice' system makes me sad and mad!! 4th Dec 17 at 7:59 PM
    Just been reading about a case where it seems pretty clear that a man did something really terrible to his young child which resulted in her death. Wont mention details as its probably not allowed.
    Anyway, said person apparently refused to answer questions put to him in court. Why do we allow this?! If you are innocent surely you would answer in as much detail possible to convince everyone of your innocence?
    Then....even if found guilty of terrible crimes, offenders are jailed for such short amounts of time. The re offending rate is high too.
    As a supposedly leading nation, why is life so cheap here in the UK? If someone is guilty of a disgusting crime, why burden the tax payer housing and feeding them?
    I'm truly happy we have fair trials etc but I do think the overall system is way too soft. Its an insult to victims and the tax payer.
Page 3
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 5th Dec 17, 4:51 PM
    • 3,422 Posts
    • 5,237 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I'm not saying let's hang every criminal. Only for certain crimes and only where its proven beyond doubt.
    Originally posted by Fireflyaway
    Beyond doubt? So you believe we should have the death penalty as long as it's never used. No-one is ever guilty beyond doubt, even if they are caught standing over the bed with the knife in their hands covered in blood, and make a full confession. It is quite common for people to confess to crimes they haven't committed and be caught in situations that look terrible to an outsider even though they haven't done anything wrong. The phrase is "beyond reasonable doubt".
    • supersaver2
    • By supersaver2 5th Dec 17, 5:02 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 2,412 Thanks
    supersaver2
    Iím not entirely sure where I stand on the death penalty but as some point out they see it as revenge, what about life in prison without parole, is that also revenge? A person could easily be sent to prison and be innocent, should we therefore not send anybody to prison just in case?
    • supersaver2
    • By supersaver2 5th Dec 17, 5:05 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 2,412 Thanks
    supersaver2
    You've answered your own question.....




    You really think he'd get a fair trial now?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    There are people who havenít heard about this, I was discussing with a parent at the school gates on Friday because itís close to where we live and theyíd not heard about it.

    The police have evidence, yet havenít charged anybody, are they actively pursuing somebody for this disgusting crime or do we have a child rapist and murderer in the clear walking about?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 5:07 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,005 Thanks
    Comms69
    Iím not entirely sure where I stand on the death penalty but as some point out they see it as revenge, what about life in prison without parole, is that also revenge? A person could easily be sent to prison and be innocent, should we therefore not send anybody to prison just in case?
    Originally posted by supersaver2


    Prison isn't as 'final' as death. Sentences can be overturned, reparations paid etc.


    However, i'm not against the death penalty per se.


    The justice system is two pronged.


    To deter and to punish - seems to fit both.


    Prison at the minute does neither to the many low-lifes that are in and out of court.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 5:08 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,005 Thanks
    Comms69
    There are people who havenít heard about this, I was discussing with a parent at the school gates on Friday because itís close to where we live and theyíd not heard about it.

    The police have evidence, yet havenít charged anybody, are they actively pursuing somebody for this disgusting crime or do we have a child rapist and murderer in the clear walking about?
    Originally posted by supersaver2


    It's close to where I live, I'm surprised. But can you guarantee a random 12 person jury would be unaware of the case?


    As to your second question. Yes there are probably dozens, maybe hundreds walking about.
    • supersaver2
    • By supersaver2 5th Dec 17, 5:12 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 2,412 Thanks
    supersaver2
    It's close to where I live, I'm surprised. But can you guarantee a random 12 person jury would be unaware of the case?


    As to your second question. Yes there are probably dozens, maybe hundreds walking about.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    So the evidence they do have is to be disregarded in case they canít find 12 people who havenít heard of the case? I imagine finding 12 people wouldnít be that difficult, not everybody follows the news or uses the Internet.
    • supersaver2
    • By supersaver2 5th Dec 17, 5:15 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 2,412 Thanks
    supersaver2
    Prison isn't as 'final' as death. Sentences can be overturned, reparations paid etc.


    However, i'm not against the death penalty per se.


    The justice system is two pronged.


    To deter and to punish - seems to fit both.


    Prison at the minute does neither to the many low-lifes that are in and out of court.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Innocent people will die in prison, thatís a given. Therefore the people who donít believe in the death penalty in case an innocent is killed surely shouldnít agree with prison Ďjust in caseí. What then do we do with criminals?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 5:16 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,005 Thanks
    Comms69
    So the evidence they do have is to be disregarded in case they canít find 12 people who havenít heard of the case? I imagine finding 12 people wouldnít be that difficult, not everybody follows the news or uses the Internet.
    Originally posted by supersaver2


    Yes. The evidence is to be disregarded. A justice system only works when it is applied blindly. You cant use a single case to make a policy / law, it doesn't work.


    You missed the key word, apologies I'll emphasise - Random. Juries must be random.
    • Lambyr
    • By Lambyr 5th Dec 17, 5:18 PM
    • 364 Posts
    • 1,646 Thanks
    Lambyr
    Iím not entirely sure where I stand on the death penalty but as some point out they see it as revenge, what about life in prison without parole, is that also revenge? A person could easily be sent to prison and be innocent, should we therefore not send anybody to prison just in case?
    Originally posted by supersaver2
    If a person is sent to prison, should a mistake have occurred and their innocence is later proven, it can be rectified to some extent - although, depending on the length of their incarceration, it might only be a small blessing. However, there does seem to be a correlation between the unwillingness for authorities to re-examine new evidence in a case, and the person convicted of the crime being on death row or deceased. It's thus more likely that innocent people who have spent decades in prison at least get some time to live free among their families than a death sentence being overturned.

    Life in prison can also offer other benefits for both the inmate and society. Criminologists have argued that prisoners who have been sentenced to life imprisonment but not death are often more willing to agree to take part in studies that have helped to identify the characteristics of many types of violent offender. Gathering this data can be inavaluable in understanding violent crime and looking at how we as a society can better protect vulnerable people.

    Some have theorised that even a whole life sentence offers an inmate hope (due to future law changes, for example), and while there is hope that they may be released in the future, in some cases there may be a desire to reform; or at the least, to deter others from making the same disasterous choices as they did. I think in various places in the US and Canada, they run schemes where people who have been sentenced to life - often for gang-related murder - have been part of programmes designed to keep young, vulnerable kids away from gangs.

    Death row inmates, on the other hand, are often consumed with bitterness and anger. They know their life will end in jail and so only a few show a similar desire to turn their situation into a positive for others. It does happen but not as often.
    Last edited by Lambyr; 05-12-2017 at 5:20 PM.
    She would always like to say,
    Why change the past when you can own this day?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Dec 17, 5:18 PM
    • 1,212 Posts
    • 1,005 Thanks
    Comms69
    Innocent people will die in prison, thatís a given. Therefore the people who donít believe in the death penalty in case an innocent is killed surely shouldnít agree with prison Ďjust in caseí. What then do we do with criminals?
    Originally posted by supersaver2


    Innocent people will die on the bus....


    As for what we do with them - depends on their crime.
    • ThumbRemote
    • By ThumbRemote 5th Dec 17, 5:18 PM
    • 3,811 Posts
    • 4,844 Thanks
    ThumbRemote
    Innocent people will die in prison, thatís a given. Therefore the people who donít believe in the death penalty in case an innocent is killed surely shouldnít agree with prison Ďjust in caseí. What then do we do with criminals?
    Originally posted by supersaver2
    Nobody's said that.

    Don't misrepresent other peoples views just to try and make your own point.
    • Lambyr
    • By Lambyr 5th Dec 17, 5:28 PM
    • 364 Posts
    • 1,646 Thanks
    Lambyr
    Innocent people will die in prison, that’s a given. Therefore the people who don’t believe in the death penalty in case an innocent is killed surely shouldn’t agree with prison ‘just in case’. What then do we do with criminals?
    Originally posted by supersaver2
    It makes sense to remove from wider society, punish through loss of liberty and attempt, where possible, to reform criminals for the wellbeing and safety of the public. It is unfortunate that it is necessary to do this but many things are an unfortunate necessity for the greater good.

    Execution, however, is a choice. It is not needed as the option of imprisonment is available. It is a definite and final end to a process organised and administered by fallible humans. Studies continue to show it fails as a deterrent. In the US, studies have also shown the death penalty is disproportiantely applied to ethnic minorities and impoverished people.

    And one could reasonably argue that choosing to punish somebody for killing by calling upon the state to kill them is a bit odd.
    Last edited by Lambyr; 05-12-2017 at 5:30 PM.
    She would always like to say,
    Why change the past when you can own this day?
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 5th Dec 17, 5:47 PM
    • 3,126 Posts
    • 4,155 Thanks
    Nick_C
    . .. her atop the Old Bailey has a blindfold wrapped around her peepers.
    Originally posted by simonineaston
    OT, but as a matter of fact, the statue of Justice at the Old Bailey does not wear a blindfold.
    • seashore22
    • By seashore22 5th Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    • 738 Posts
    • 1,485 Thanks
    seashore22
    Iím not entirely sure where I stand on the death penalty but as some point out they see it as revenge, what about life in prison without parole, is that also revenge? A person could easily be sent to prison and be innocent, should we therefore not send anybody to prison just in case?
    Originally posted by supersaver2
    That is totally different.

    There needs to be a criminal justice system and the public needs protecting from people who will do them harm. Some offenders do need to go to prison for the rest of their lives because they will always be a danger. There is always the opportunity to release them if they are found to be innocent at a later date and it has happened before and will again.

    However if you execute someone there is no chance of bringing them back. No chance of giving them their life back. That has happened too and I think it's a terrible prospect.
    • janninew
    • By janninew 5th Dec 17, 8:00 PM
    • 3,793 Posts
    • 7,181 Thanks
    janninew
    Itís an interesting point supersaver2 makes. If you donít believe in the death penalty just in case an innocent is killed how can you agree with prison when an innocent could be locked away for years? Yes a life sentence isnít as final as death but must be unbearable for the innocent person locked up for years. Why is the risk acceptable for one yet not the other? Being in prison for the rest of my natural days away from my family when I was innocent is unthinkable.
    Newborn Thread Member

    'Children reinvent the world for you.' - Susan Sarandan
    • Lambyr
    • By Lambyr 5th Dec 17, 8:17 PM
    • 364 Posts
    • 1,646 Thanks
    Lambyr
    Itís an interesting point supersaver2 makes. If you donít believe in the death penalty just in case an innocent is killed how can you agree with prison when an innocent could be locked away for years? Yes a life sentence isnít as final as death but must be unbearable for the innocent person locked up for years. Why is the risk acceptable for one yet not the other? Being in prison for the rest of my natural days away from my family when I was innocent is unthinkable.
    Originally posted by janninew
    I imagine it would be unbearable, which is why it is very important that we uphold prisoner's rights to fair and humane treatment, provide adequate support for mental health issues and also ensure that should new evidence be made available, access to legal counsel, opportunities for retrial and, if acquitted, sufficient redress for victims of miscarriages of justice be made available.

    It is a bit harder to do that when we've hanged someone or injected them with a lethal cocktail of drugs.
    She would always like to say,
    Why change the past when you can own this day?
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 5th Dec 17, 8:34 PM
    • 3,601 Posts
    • 7,941 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    Itís an interesting point supersaver2 makes. If you donít believe in the death penalty just in case an innocent is killed how can you agree with prison when an innocent could be locked away for years? Yes a life sentence isnít as final as death but must be unbearable for the innocent person locked up for years. Why is the risk acceptable for one yet not the other? Being in prison for the rest of my natural days away from my family when I was innocent is unthinkable.
    Originally posted by janninew
    Unthinkable, but still better than being dead.

    If you're alive, at least restitution for lost earnings and compensation can be made when the miscarriage of justice is overturned, though of course there will be a contingent, usually the same ones calling for the death penalty and likening prisons to holiday camps, that will shout about how terrible it is that any kind of financial compensation is paid to those wrongly imprisoned.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 5th Dec 17, 8:57 PM
    • 1,888 Posts
    • 2,667 Thanks
    Robisere
    I don't believe in capital punishment, but I do firmly believe in people like Hindley and Brady being locked up forever. Anyone who thinks that this is not punishment enough, only has to look at that vile pair, and others. When they are deprived of their liberty, and that until death, there should be no possibility of release if they are unmistakably guilty of the most terrible crimes. Brady of course, went mad inside. This happens because there is the inescapable knowledge that they will never be anywhere but behind the same walls, doing the same dreary things, having a complete non-life until the day they die. That is suffering and they deserve it. There should be no release for that category of criminal, not even if they develop a terminal disease. And they should be aware that the steady drip-drip of years will never end until they do, as they age and become steadily unhealthier in those conditions.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • MothballsWallet
    • By MothballsWallet 5th Dec 17, 9:08 PM
    • 11,549 Posts
    • 15,147 Thanks
    MothballsWallet
    FWIW, the UK government (as well as many others) signed a UN treaty agreeing to get rid of the death penalty from our statute book.

    We complied, many of the other signatories still have not.
    Always ask yourself one question: What would Gibbs do?
    Married to an immigrant.
    Even my PC is nicknamed "GIBBS".
    • Scorpio33
    • By Scorpio33 6th Dec 17, 1:13 PM
    • 477 Posts
    • 681 Thanks
    Scorpio33
    Just to add to this debate:

    1. Often having a death penalty increases the level of crimes committed. This is due to the criminal committing a crime and thinking "Well if I get caught I am going to get the death sentence, so I may as well do my worst." You only have to look at the US and see that the death sentence is not a deterrent at all.

    2. If someone is locked up as an innocent, it is entirely possible that new technology can uncover new truths which could prove their innocence. At least if they are in jail, they would then have a chance of being proved innocent.

    The other thing is that it is not just the criminal or victim you need to think about here. It is the family and friends of such people - imagine if your brother was locked up for something and brandished a criminal when he was innocent? Your life would also be adversely affected, so justice for innocent people needs to be done where possible.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

933Posts Today

5,928Users online

Martin's Twitter