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  • FIRST POST
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 4th Dec 17, 3:48 PM
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    Stoke
    Transfer of Equity, who pays the fees?
    • #1
    • 4th Dec 17, 3:48 PM
    Transfer of Equity, who pays the fees? 4th Dec 17 at 3:48 PM
    So I've just had a fairly awkward breakup with my ex fiancee and we're finally coming to the end of what has been quite a difficult process coming to an agreement on finances. There's still plenty to resolve though.

    One thing she has steadfastly refused to pay 50% towards, is anything to do with removing her name from the mortgage, transfer of equity and transferring the house into my name. She's said, quote, "this is of no benefit to me, why should I be paying?" and I suppose she is right to some degree, however the benefits are that she will not have to tell her next potential mortgage lender that she is still on another mortgage. To me, the most obvious way of solving this is to simply pay 50% each. The whole process costs around £500.

    This month is also the first she has refused to pay her part of the mortgage which means I'm sustaining it on my own. I have no idea if that makes her in breach of contract, as it's a shared mortgage, but it means I'm now on borrowed time to be honest. This needs to be resolved as the equity in the house changes month to month.
Page 1
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 4th Dec 17, 4:23 PM
    • 30,751 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:23 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:23 PM

    This month is also the first she has refused to pay her part of the mortgage which means I'm sustaining it on my own. I have no idea if that makes her in breach of contract, as it's a shared mortgage, but it means I'm now on borrowed time to be honest. This needs to be resolved as the equity in the house changes month to month.
    Originally posted by Stoke

    if she stops paying her share of the property gets fixed at the % she owns at that point
    OR
    the amount of debt you each own changes as hers is fixed and interest is compounding and your has a big overpayment.


    this should have been in the trust deed under the can't pay won't pay section. (I know everyone forgets to do that one).
    • ACG
    • By ACG 4th Dec 17, 4:31 PM
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    ACG
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:31 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:31 PM
    She can not just stop paying the mortgage. You are both 100% liable for it. Yes, people usually pay half or a percentage of it each, but in reality you both owe 100% of the debt. You could theoretically take her to small claims for half the mortgage each month (presumably if she has been paying half, that would be seen as some sort of contract between you both).

    However, she could theoretically move back in/force the sale etc etc.

    There is no right or wrong argument as to who should pay for the ToE. But as you mention it is in both of your interests for her to be taken off, hers so it will not prevent her getting a Mortgage in the future and she does not need to make monthly repayments and yours so she is not entitled to any increase in value, equity etc and you can both draw a line in the sand and start a fresh.
    I am a Mortgage Adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a mortgage adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 4th Dec 17, 4:35 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:35 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:35 PM
    you may want to review the rest of the agreement if this is a stumbling issue are you sure you got the rest of it right.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 4th Dec 17, 4:38 PM
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    Tom99
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:38 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 17, 4:38 PM
    I would pay the £250 and get it sorted.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 4th Dec 17, 5:13 PM
    • 56,182 Posts
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    Thrugelmir
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:13 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:13 PM
    One thing she has steadfastly refused to pay 50% towards, is anything to do with removing her name from the mortgage, transfer of equity and transferring the house into my name.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    Will you contribute to the cost of her next house purchase. She has a point. I'd pay it and be done. Move on with your life as quickly as you able.
    “Opportunities come infrequently. When it rains gold, put out the bucket, not the thimble”
    ― Warren Buffett
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 4th Dec 17, 5:16 PM
    • 1,998 Posts
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    Stoke
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:16 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:16 PM
    this should have been in the trust deed under the can't pay won't pay section. (I know everyone forgets to do that one).
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I don't know if this is the same thing, but I got a declaration of trust written up before we bought the house. I invested a lot more than her and I simply wasn't willing to let myself get mugged off.

    She can not just stop paying the mortgage. You are both 100% liable for it. Yes, people usually pay half or a percentage of it each, but in reality you both owe 100% of the debt. You could theoretically take her to small claims for half the mortgage each month (presumably if she has been paying half, that would be seen as some sort of contract between you both).

    However, she could theoretically move back in/force the sale etc etc.

    There is no right or wrong argument as to who should pay for the ToE. But as you mention it is in both of your interests for her to be taken off, hers so it will not prevent her getting a Mortgage in the future and she does not need to make monthly repayments and yours so she is not entitled to any increase in value, equity etc and you can both draw a line in the sand and start a fresh.
    Originally posted by ACG
    Thanks for your reply. You say she can't..... well she has. I've had to cover her contribution as I am not willing to let the house get into arrears and utterly destroy my good credit rating.

    I'm aware of her moving back in and forcing the sale which is why I have to be careful. It's been made clear to me that she could refuse to allow me to take over the house and in that situation, I have little choice but to sell.

    Thanks for your reply though, this does help a lot. I'm glad that I'm not the only one thinking that we both should be paying.

    you may want to review the rest of the agreement if this is a stumbling issue are you sure you got the rest of it right.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I'm not stupid. The settlement she gets out of the house is accurate and I've had verified by a solicitor.

    I would pay the £250 and get it sorted.
    Originally posted by Tom99
    Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't mind so much if it was 250, but it's actually 500. She's not budging on it though, so unless I deduct it from her part of the settlement (which I could, I suppose), then I'll have to cover it.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 4th Dec 17, 5:41 PM
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    Thrugelmir
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:41 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:41 PM
    I wouldn't mind so much if it was 250, but it's actually 500. She's not budging on it though, so unless I deduct it from her part of the settlement (which I could, I suppose), then I'll have to cover it.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    Sometimes in life it's not about the money. One's own sanity should come first. There's no winners in a situation such as this.
    “Opportunities come infrequently. When it rains gold, put out the bucket, not the thimble”
    ― Warren Buffett
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 4th Dec 17, 5:54 PM
    • 1,998 Posts
    • 836 Thanks
    Stoke
    • #9
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:54 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Dec 17, 5:54 PM
    Sometimes in life it's not about the money. One's own sanity should come first. There's no winners in a situation such as this.
    Originally posted by Thrugelmir
    True. There's no winners
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 4th Dec 17, 8:08 PM
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    getmore4less
    I don't know if this is the same thing, but I got a declaration of trust written up before we bought the house. I invested a lot more than her and I simply wasn't willing to let myself get mugged off.

    loads get those but they don't cover what happens when one party stops paying

    does yours?



    I'm not stupid. The settlement she gets out of the house is accurate and I've had verified by a solicitor.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    that's if you got the deed of trust right in the first place many come here with broken ones drawn up by solicitors.

    since you have this dispute yours was not that good if it did not cover buyout costs, wonder what else was wrong/missing.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 4th Dec 17, 8:56 PM
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    • 836 Thanks
    Stoke
    that's if you got the deed of trust right in the first place many come here with broken ones drawn up by solicitors.

    since you have this dispute yours was not that good if it did not cover buyout costs, wonder what else was wrong/missing.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Well I guess I paid my solicitors to do a job and they didn't do a good one.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 4th Dec 17, 10:35 PM
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    getmore4less
    Well I guess I paid my solicitors to do a job and they didn't do a good one.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    What did the independent advice your ex took at the time say about the agreement?
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 4th Dec 17, 11:57 PM
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    • 397 Thanks
    Tom99
    Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't mind so much if it was 250, but it's actually 500. She's not budging on it though, so unless I deduct it from her part of the settlement (which I could, I suppose), then I'll have to cover it.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    You say the whole process costs £500 so is that not £250 each?
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 5th Dec 17, 10:05 AM
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    Stoke
    You say the whole process costs £500 so is that not £250 each?
    Originally posted by Tom99
    Yes. She's refusing to pay though.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 5th Dec 17, 10:05 AM
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    Stoke
    What did the independent advice your ex took at the time say about the agreement?
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Uhmmmmm.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 5th Dec 17, 1:19 PM
    • 6,985 Posts
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    bowlhead99
    I don't know if this is the same thing, but I got a declaration of trust written up before we bought the house. I invested a lot more than her and I simply wasn't willing to let myself get mugged off.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    So the declaration of trust that protects you from getting mugged off would set out what would happen in the event that one person decides they can't or won't pay anything towards the mortgage and don't have any desire to fund any costs of getting themselves out of the mortgage...

    That could be something like, your ongoing mortgage contributions buy you an increasing share in the house until she takes action to force a sale of the house or agree a value to sell her piece to you. Or some other solution. Or it may be silent on the matter...

    Thanks for your reply. You say she can't..... well she has. I've had to cover her contribution as I am not willing to let the house get into arrears and utterly destroy my good credit rating.
    I think you misunderstand what was being said due to typo.

    It wasn't that she can not just stop paying the mortgage, it was that she can just not pay the mortgage, ie just stop.

    The reason for that is she doesn't have an agreement with the bank to keep funding her proportionate share of the mortgage. Instead, you collectively have an agreement with the bank to fund all the mortgage. If she doesn't pay, and you don't want to lose the house, you will probably pay

    If you don't collectively keep to the joint agreement you have with the bank, the bank can trash (both) your credit ratings, pursue you both for the debt, force a sale - because you are both 100% up for being chased. If there is equity in the property and they sell your property at a low value that will cost you both, and if proceeds are lower than the debt they could pursue you both, though practically may "go after" the one who is most likely to be able to pay them back, especially if the other person just shrugs and says "bankrupt me then, see if I care".

    But it sounds like you get all that and like any sensible person you want to go ahead and get her off the mortgage and deeds ASAP so she doesn't persist in being silly and causing you a personal financial loss or bad credit.

    Thanks for your reply though, this does help a lot. I'm glad that I'm not the only one thinking that we both should be paying.
    I agree totally that you *should* both be paying but unfortunately the way to enforce your legal rights is to use the court system which would likely cost you in time and hassle and cash outlay, more than £250.

    Practically if she wants to cause you grief she can just say "well I'm not living there so I ain't paying" and flounce off, leaving you covering the shortfall if you want to avoid the mortgage going into arrears which of course you do. Depending on the terms and complexity of your deed of trust that might cost her some equity - but maybe she doesn't care if her share is quite substantial (because she's wealthy), or quite small (because there's not much equity so she isn't going to get a big payout anyway so isn't bothered), or she's just naive and hadn't thought it through.

    It would be nice to just engage a solicitor, get the documentation done, get her to sign, and take her share of the costs out of her net proceeds and let her chase you in small claims if she wants to get 'her' £250 back. But as she would have to sign the paperwork and won't sign anything she doesn't want to sign for whatever reason (either a sensible reason or an idiotic reason), you may struggle to do that.

    It's true that if she doesn't get off the house deeds and mortgage she won't be able to get another residential mortgage, won't be able to buy another property even without a mortgage without paying extra stamp duty for multiple homes, and will be on the hook with the bank if *you* decide to just stop paying as well. However, depending on her circumstances she might be ok with that.

    There is a phrase in investing, don't make a decision just because of what you think the market *should* do - the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. It is the same with ex-partners. The right thing morally is for her to pay her fair share of the costs of the 'exit' process (and maybe her fair share of the cost may not be 50:50, if your share of equity is greater than hers and it's felt that you benefit more from anything to do with the property so you should pay more of the costs of financing and buying and selling it). But if the ex wants to be obstinate and irrational, in a belief (rational or not) that it will be better for them if they behave that way, then they may well get away with it because the other party can't afford to wait it out forever.
    Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't mind so much if it was 250, but it's actually 500. She's not budging on it though, so unless I deduct it from her part of the settlement (which I could, I suppose), then I'll have to cover it.
    At the end of the day, you want the whole property in your name and to not have her having an interest in the property for years to come and credit ratings tangled together.

    So, I think you've rightly concluded it might be best to pay up yourself rather than argue the toss over who pays for the settlement you came up with. She might be hoping you will eventually see it that way, and may just be playing dumb because she knows you'll eventually cave. Or maybe she's not that smart and is just naive. Either way, you can get on with your life of you pay, and can't (yet) if you hold out to try to change her mind. I'd probably pay and move on.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 05-12-2017 at 1:27 PM.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 5th Dec 17, 3:42 PM
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    Stoke
    Thanks for that excellent reply bowlhead. Very very thorough.

    I have resigned myself to the fact I'll pay. Ultimately, come the end of this process, I will be in my own house, with my own mortgage, with a good credit rating, and she won't be able to mess with that. The money will pale into insignificance over the next few months.

    Thank you
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