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  • FIRST POST
    • shar82
    • By shar82 3rd Dec 17, 6:22 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 1Thanks
    shar82
    URGENT - Help appealing Smart Parking parking charge
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:22 PM
    URGENT - Help appealing Smart Parking parking charge 3rd Dec 17 at 6:22 PM
    Hi can someone please help I have read as much as I could on the newbies sticky

    I received a letter in the post as my car was in a smart parking ltd car park for longer than 10 minutes. The total duration was just less than 14 minutes so 3-4 minutes over. I will paste the BPA template in the online appeal form, but is it worth mentioning I find the 14 minutes excessive if that helps get them right the charge off? or makes no difference at all, and stick to the original template without change?

    Any help / advice is appreciated
    P.S. the template I'll be pasting is the one including (unless there's a newer one)?:

    "
    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply."
    Last edited by shar82; 03-12-2017 at 9:08 PM.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    • 33,539 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    Send it as is
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:28 PM
    use this one from post #4

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73242562

    adapt it and remove the POFA2012 paragraph unless the NTK came in the post after day 15 (in which case leave it in)

    the GRACE PERIODS are mainly what matters here so keep that paragraph in

    there are TWO grace periods, not one , one before and one after (to leave)
    Last edited by Redx; 03-12-2017 at 6:37 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • shar82
    • By shar82 3rd Dec 17, 6:36 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    • #4
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:36 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:36 PM
    thank you both, this is the appeal in post 4:



    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge, mainly for the following two reasons.

    You have failed POFA2012 due to late delivery of the NTK .

    Also Clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here and this appeal, any subsequent appeal and also any court case will have this as a prominent argument as to why this invoice should be cancelled.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.



    Yours faithfully,



    Cannot see a mention of grace period? am I being dumb if possible please send me the complete appeal to paste (Sorry for sounding stupid and thanks in advance)
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:40 PM
    you should be downloading and reading the BPA CoP dated october 2015 if you want to know some of the grounds to appeal on

    read clause #13 of that CoP , because it is GRACE PERIODS that you mentioned in your opening post and I almost agreed with you, except there are 2 grace periods, not one and that is why the extra paragraph is in there , to cover that scenario

    my linked post above has 2 additional appeal grounds compared to the one you posted , grace periods (clause #13) and POFA2012 failure as well

    did the NTK arrive after day 15 ? or before day 15 ?

    the answer will decide if you remove that paragraph or not

    YOU need to adapt it so its truthful and only inclues any extra paragraphs that are relevant

    95% of the work was done for you , now its your turn
    Last edited by Redx; 05-12-2017 at 8:51 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • shar82
    • By shar82 3rd Dec 17, 6:47 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    • #6
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:47 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:47 PM
    The notice arrived before day 15

    Also thank you, I read an older version hence why grace period was not mentioned in there, but found a newer version and grace period is mentioned under #13

    This is the amended version:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Also Clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here and this appeal, any subsequent appeal and also any court case will have this as a prominent argument as to why this invoice should be cancelled.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.



    Yours faithfully,
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
    yes , another one of my edits and adaptations

    as you can see, its been altered slighly from the original PLUS the clause #13 paragraph has been added

    its not hard if people put some effort in , and you do need to understand the grounds for appealing , which will have more legal points in any subsequent popla appeal

    so lets say 5 minutes to park up and over 10 minutes to leave following the parking period

    2 grace periods , NO overstay
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • shar82
    • By shar82 3rd Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    • #8
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Dec 17, 6:54 PM
    thank you redx it is appreciated - the version I've posted up there is good enough for the appeal so I'm ok to submit it online? sorry for repeating but just need confirmation - never had this sort of thing happen before so you guys are great help
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 17, 7:00 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 3rd Dec 17, 7:00 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Dec 17, 7:00 PM
    yes its fine and is how it should be , so as you can see, self research works

    I would still advise you to read the BPA CoP clause #13 carefully so you understand why 2 grace periods apply

    I always assume its UP TO 10 MINUTES to park up , read the signs and comply with any tickets etc , plus OVER 10 minutes to leave means 11 or more minutes, so at a busy seaside car park like fistral beach this could be twenty minutes to leave , or more, due to traffic delays

    context is the key

    in post #1 , you stated that the driver "overstayed" , my opinion is that this is incorrect, they did not "overstay" at all , as 14 minutes added to a chargeable parking period is within the BPA CoP , so no "overstay" has taken place

    but not so SMART have interpreted matters incorrectly (and as always its in their interest not yours) and popla should find in your favour if smart fail to cancel

    the additional paragraph is what should alert them to the fact that you have cottoned on to this grace periods clause and will be using it

    proving you are not a mug and cannot be mugged
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 3rd Dec 17, 7:12 PM
    • 33,539 Posts
    • 17,432 Thanks
    Quentin
    Was the total stay 13 mins?


    Your OP seems to say this??
    • shar82
    • By shar82 3rd Dec 17, 9:07 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    a few seconds under 14 minutes
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 4th Dec 17, 12:11 AM
    • 33,539 Posts
    • 17,432 Thanks
    Quentin
    In that case the driver had just one grace period, as presumably no free parking was involved??
    • shar82
    • By shar82 5th Dec 17, 8:49 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    do they purposely delay response times so they can try and increase the charge? appeal was sent before the 14 days. Also no confirmation via email that it has been processed, so I'm guessing they don't have an auto response system set up?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Dec 17, 8:50 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,046 Thanks
    Redx
    they have 35 days under the BPA CoP to decide , although this rule is never enforced by the BPA

    reading that BPA CoP will answer many of your questions
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • shar82
    • By shar82 5th Dec 17, 9:04 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    shar82
    thanks does submitting an appeal stop the rates from rising until I get a response? or they will increase it either way after 14 days? If it does rise it, is it worth me attempting to call them to check my appeal over the phone?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Dec 17, 9:09 PM
    • 4,757 Posts
    • 3,107 Thanks
    KeithP
    It is never a good idea to phone a private parking company.

    You may unwittingly answer one of their questions in such a way that they find out the name of the driver.

    Not a good idea.

    Anyway, why are you considering paying anything?

    I thought the whole idea of going through this appeal process was to pay NOTHING.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Dec 17, 9:14 PM
    • 15,927 Posts
    • 24,710 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    thanks does submitting an appeal stop the rates from rising until I get a response? or they will increase it either way after 14 days?
    Ignore the lower ‘offer’. It means send us 60 quid, don’t give us no sh|t boss, we just want your dosh, you don’t appeal (where we know you have more chance of winning than we do - especially if those awful MSE regulars are getting involved). Make life easy for us PPCs, please.

    If it does rise it, is it worth me attempting to call them to check my appeal over the phone?
    Never call a PPC, never call a debt collector. They have absolutely no interest in providing you with even the most minimum of help - they just want you money! Can I make it any cruder?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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