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  • FIRST POST
    • the sherrif
    • By the sherrif 3rd Dec 17, 8:15 AM
    • 26Posts
    • 15Thanks
    the sherrif
    Insurance problem
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:15 AM
    Insurance problem 3rd Dec 17 at 8:15 AM
    Hi to you all.I have been driving for over 37 years without ever having any points on my license indeed never had a parking ticket either.One day last week I was pulled over by the police who informed me the delivery van I was driving was not insured.As I have worked for the company for the best part of 20 years I thought this must be wrong as we have at least 10 vehicles which are used on a daily basis for delivering.It turns out the company had no insurance as it they had not renewed it.They have since done so but I was charged with driving without it.I had been in a minor bump with a bus in October whereby I contacted my office who at that point gave me our insurance details which were valid at that time.As no one had told any of the drivers that the insurance had lapsed I feel very hard done by.Can anyone give me advice on where I stand with this as Iím worried sick over it.Thanks in advance,
Page 1
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 3rd Dec 17, 8:38 AM
    • 533 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #2
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:38 AM
    • #2
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:38 AM
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/143

    Pay attention to part 3c.

    As an employee you have a statutory defence that you were using the vehicle for work and had no reason to think there was no insurance in place.
    • Lomast
    • By Lomast 3rd Dec 17, 8:41 AM
    • 366 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    Lomast
    • #3
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:41 AM
    • #3
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:41 AM
    There is a defense when driving a company vehicle and you have no reason to believe the company does not have insurance.
    You will probably have to not accept the fpn and take it to court with a not guilty plea.

    • Rover Driver
    • By Rover Driver 3rd Dec 17, 8:49 AM
    • 1,317 Posts
    • 605 Thanks
    Rover Driver
    • #4
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:49 AM
    • #4
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:49 AM
    Unfortunately driving without insurance is an absolute offence i.e., there is no excuse. It is your responsibility to ensure there is insurance in place before you drive.

    It is also your company's responsibility to ensure you have insurance in place so they have also committed an offence with the same penalties.

    You may be able to argue for more leniency in the punishment due to the circumstances, might be worth speaking to a solicitor.
    Originally posted by chrisw
    As in posts 2 & 3, there is a statutory defence for the OP - RTA 1988, s.143, 3(c).
    • chrisw
    • By chrisw 3rd Dec 17, 8:51 AM
    • 1,668 Posts
    • 915 Thanks
    chrisw
    • #5
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:51 AM
    • #5
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:51 AM
    As in posts 2 & 3, there is a statutory defence for the OP - RTA 1988, s.143, 3(c).
    Originally posted by Rover Driver
    Yeah, spotted that so deleted my post.
    • the sherrif
    • By the sherrif 3rd Dec 17, 8:57 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    the sherrif
    • #6
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:57 AM
    • #6
    • 3rd Dec 17, 8:57 AM
    Thanks guys,feeling a wee bit better about this now
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 3rd Dec 17, 9:39 AM
    • 533 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #7
    • 3rd Dec 17, 9:39 AM
    • #7
    • 3rd Dec 17, 9:39 AM
    What stage are things at? Were you given a penalty notice or told you were being reported?

    Ideally if you get your defence together you may be able to get things stopped before it gets to court.
    • the sherrif
    • By the sherrif 3rd Dec 17, 10:22 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    the sherrif
    • #8
    • 3rd Dec 17, 10:22 AM
    • #8
    • 3rd Dec 17, 10:22 AM
    I was told I will be reported to the procurator fiscal(I live in Scotland).The police took the van away to a pound and it!!!8217;s now back with us after being insured.I wasn!!!8217;t given any paperwork other than the the papers to say they were seizing the vehicle due to it not being insured.To be honest it was a bit of a blur and because I have no slip to say I!!!8217;ve been charged I!!!8217;m not entirely sure I have.
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 3rd Dec 17, 10:32 AM
    • 533 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #9
    • 3rd Dec 17, 10:32 AM
    • #9
    • 3rd Dec 17, 10:32 AM
    Ok, I'm not familiar with the different procedures north of the border.

    If you head over to the Pepipoo forum you will get some good advice on what to do next.

    I would suggest that a letter from you and your employer to the prosecution explaining your defence may convince them there are no grounds to carry on with the case (against you). They may instead look at charges against your employer.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 3rd Dec 17, 11:49 AM
    • 16,437 Posts
    • 14,695 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Ok, I'm not familiar with the different procedures north of the border.
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    The legislation's the same in England and Wales, and in Scotland.

    The link to the legislation posted at the start of the thread has a button that says "Show Geographical Extent" - this tells you where it applies...

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/143?view=extent

    E+W+S = England, Wales, Scotland.
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 3rd Dec 17, 12:19 PM
    • 533 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    wgl2014
    I might not have been as clear as I could have.... I get that the legislation is the same however the court system and way things are dealt with is sometimes different.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 3rd Dec 17, 12:49 PM
    • 2,642 Posts
    • 1,695 Thanks
    Car 54
    What stage are things at? Were you given a penalty notice or told you were being reported?
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    Neither is needed for an insurance offence.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 3rd Dec 17, 12:51 PM
    • 1,083 Posts
    • 516 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Neither is needed for an insurance offence.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    So other than being charged at a police station how would they get you to court?
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 3rd Dec 17, 2:01 PM
    • 2,642 Posts
    • 1,695 Thanks
    Car 54
    So other than being charged at a police station how would they get you to court?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    A summons. Failing that, an arrest warrant.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 3rd Dec 17, 2:06 PM
    • 1,083 Posts
    • 516 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    A summons. Failing that, an arrest warrant.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    And to raise a summons they defendant is first reported.
    • the sherrif
    • By the sherrif 26th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    the sherrif
    Hi all,thanks for all replies here is an update of the outcome of my post.On Thursday I received a letter from the procurator fiscal.In law I could!!!8217;ve been taken to court but due to the circumstances they have decided a warning would be enough.If I accept the warning by not replying to the letter within a month then that is the end of the matter.To say I!!!8217;m delighted is an understatement and obviously I!!!8217;m accepting it.No penalty points or any other endorsements so in this case I must say common sense has prevailed.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 26th Jan 18, 9:48 PM
    • 1,371 Posts
    • 1,027 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    Hi all,thanks for all replies here is an update of the outcome of my post.On Thursday I received a letter from the procurator fiscal.In law I couldíve been taken to court but due to the circumstances they have decided a warning would be enough.If I accept the warning by not replying to the letter within a month then that is the end of the matter.To say Iím delighted is an understatement and obviously Iím accepting it.No penalty points or any other endorsements so in this case I must say common sense has prevailed.
    Originally posted by the sherrif
    What does a warning mean? It appears to be similar to a caution in England and Wales and counts as a conviction.

    Before accepting a warning I would check with a Scottish solicitor as to the implications. As other people have observed, you have a valid defence so should not need to accept the warning. The danger is that you think that the court is intimidating and therefore accept the warning. You then effectively have a criminal record and you also will need to report this to your personal insurance.

    However, I am not familiar with the status of warnings in Scotland, so I strongly recommend you seek proper advice before thinking that a warning is as simple as a note not to do it again.

    [Edit]PS I've asked the question on Pepipoo to see what people think there.
    Last edited by IanMSpencer; 27-01-2018 at 1:11 PM.
    • the sherrif
    • By the sherrif 26th Jan 18, 10:16 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    the sherrif
    The letter was pretty clear basically it said although in the eyes of the law I had committed 2 road traffic offences due to the circumstances they would go down the road of a warning.It explained if accepted there would be no further action taken and no record would be taken with no black marks either on my license or against me.Warnings are common up here(Scotland)for all sorts of offences and are generally given for minor offences with no stain on the persons character.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 26th Jan 18, 10:20 PM
    • 4,256 Posts
    • 3,744 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    ^^^ What Ian says.

    CHECK what they mean by a warning and whether it's the same as a caution south of the border. Accepting a caution in E&W is an admission of guilt and goes on your record as such. You are NOT guilty (see the statutory defence linked above) and they know it.

    It looks like a recorded police warning isn't a finding of guilt but IS recorded on your criminal history for 2 years:

    https://www.askthe.scottish.police.uk/content/Q927.htm

    Speak to a Scottish solicitor about exactly what a "warning" means before replying to them either way.
    • trigger fish
    • By trigger fish 26th Jan 18, 11:00 PM
    • 1,048 Posts
    • 1,017 Thanks
    trigger fish
    This 'warning' needs further inspection.

    If its meaningless then why issue it.
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