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  • FIRST POST
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 4:32 PM
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    broughsupn
    Conflicting advice on if the car owner is responsible for a PCN
    • #1
    • 2nd Dec 17, 4:32 PM
    Conflicting advice on if the car owner is responsible for a PCN 2nd Dec 17 at 4:32 PM
    Hi,

    Apologies for this but there does appear to be conflicting advice.

    Scenario

    Car driver but not owner, parks car gets ticket puts on dash, it slips down so is retrieved and placed on dash. Returns to car to find PCN, finds two tickets had fallen down back of dash and they inadvertently placed wrong ticket on dash.

    No point appealing as we know that is futile, reads this.


    Template appeal for IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:


    - if this is an IPC member parking firm, see post #3, there is no POPLA for you, so consumers do not get a fair appeal. Instead, just send this letter or a version of it, writing ONLY as the registered keeper, with their name and address (thanks to salmosalaris for the basis of this letter):


    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Thinks that looks like a good plan but then reads this.

    Don't assume the driver's liable for the ticket

    Official parking tickets are the responsibility of the vehicle's registered owner, not the driver, unless issued to hire cars. This applies throughout the UK.

    If you've got a ticket while in a hire car, hire firms can either send you the payment demand or pay the ticket themselves and send you a bill, plus an admin fee. So if you've got a ticket while driving a hire car and want to appeal against it, let the hire firm know.

    They seem to conflict so which is the correct one.

    Thanks

    Reggie
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Dec 17, 4:43 PM
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    KeithP
    • #2
    • 2nd Dec 17, 4:43 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Dec 17, 4:43 PM
    Don't assume the driver's liable for the ticket

    Official parking tickets are the responsibility of the vehicle's registered owner, not the driver, unless issued to hire cars. This applies throughout the UK.
    So you found these words in MSE's Parking Ticket Appeals document.

    Unfortunately that guide is not as good as it could be.

    Anyway, you've taken these words out of context.

    Those phrases refer to what they call 'official' tickets, i.e. council tickets.

    As you have mentioned 'IPC', can we assume these are private parking tickets you are talking about?

    Who is the parking company?

    If it is an IPC company, sent the black text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread. Send it without change or additions.


    Towards the end of your post you mention 'hire car'.
    Is that relevant to your situation?
    .
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 5:52 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    broughsupn
    • #3
    • 2nd Dec 17, 5:52 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Dec 17, 5:52 PM
    So you found these words in MSE's Parking Ticket Appeals document.

    Unfortunately that guide is not as good as it could be.

    Anyway, you've taken these words out of context.

    Those phrases refer to what they call 'official' tickets, i.e. council tickets.

    As you have mentioned 'IPC', can we assume these are private parking tickets you are talking about?

    Who is the parking company?

    If it is an IPC company, sent the black text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread. Send it without change or additions.


    Towards the end of your post you mention 'hire car'.
    Is that relevant to your situation?
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Thanks for the reply they are an IPC it did seem to say that response was for an IPC.

    Not a hire car but I can prove with documented signed evidence it was not me driving the car, unless I have mastered being in 2 places at once.

    Regards

    Reggie
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Dec 17, 5:54 PM
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 2nd Dec 17, 5:54 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Dec 17, 5:54 PM
    Other points to note. The DVLA only hold details of the registered keeper, not the owner who may or may not be the same person. Then there is the day to day keeper who may or may not be the registered keeper.

    Whilst this may be confusing, it can be used to a motorist's advantage, but they need to know what they are doing first, which is where this forum comes in.

    Personally I wouldn't use anything from the "Official" MSE parking forum as we know that they are not necessarily as knowledgeable as the people who post here.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Dec 17, 6:04 PM
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    KeithP
    • #5
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:04 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:04 PM
    Thanks for the reply they are an IPC it did seem to say that response was for an IPC.

    Not a hire car but I can prove with documented signed evidence it was not me driving the car, unless I have mastered being in 2 places at once.

    Regards

    Reggie
    Originally posted by broughsupn
    Then as I said earlier:
    If it is an IPC company, sent the black text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread. Send it without change or additions.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    .
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 6:15 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    broughsupn
    • #6
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:15 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:15 PM


    If it is an IPC company, sent the black text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread. Send it without change or additions.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Sorry, I am not sure where this is pointing to.

    Regards

    Reggie
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 6:19 PM
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    broughsupn
    • #7
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:19 PM
    • #7
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:19 PM
    Then there is the day to day keeper who may or may not be the registered keeper.

    Whilst this may be confusing, it can be used to a motorist's advantage, but they need to know what they are doing first, which is where this forum comes in.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    That applies to me, what do I need to know?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
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    KeithP
    • #8
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
    • #8
    • 2nd Dec 17, 6:52 PM
    Sorry, I am not sure where this is pointing to.
    Originally posted by broughsupn
    I am pointing you towards a thread entitled:

    **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou!



    That applies to me, what do I need to know?
    Originally posted by broughsupn
    What you need to know is... never reveal the identity of the driver.
    .
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Dec 17, 8:23 PM
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    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 2nd Dec 17, 8:23 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Dec 17, 8:23 PM
    The keeper waits for the NTK to arrive through the post then sends the IPC template from the NEWBIES thread.

    If the keeper wishes, they can add that they were not the driver, ensuring that they do not reveal the driver's identity in the process. This will be futile as the IPC scammer will either ignore it or ask for the driver's name.

    After that, the keeper ignores everything except real court papers.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 9:15 PM
    • 12 Posts
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    broughsupn
    Thank you you all for the help and Advice, much appreciated.

    Reggie.

    PS If unlucky I may be back
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 2nd Dec 17, 9:34 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    broughsupn
    S

    If it is an IPC company, sent the black text appeal from post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread. Send it without change or additions.

    Originally posted by KeithP
    Just so I get this right, that would be the appeal starting

    "Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:"

    Thanks

    Reggie
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Dec 17, 10:37 PM
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    KeithP
    That's right.
    .
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 2nd Dec 17, 10:42 PM
    • 7,701 Posts
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    pappa golf
    [QUOTE=broughsupn;73502615]Thank you you all for the help and Advice, much appreciated.

    Reggie.

    PS If unlucky I may be back[/QUOTE]

    you will be ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    • tincombe
    • By tincombe 3rd Dec 17, 2:40 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    tincombe
    On the other hand, if there is a valid ticket and if the notice related to its non-display and if, as is becoming common practice, the driver entered their registration number then you have evidence that payment was made about which the person who issued the notice was unaware and which you should provide to the PPC because ultimately if this ever got to court you would present this in evidence.

    And would, whoever the PPC is, bother to take a case to court based only on non-display, even if this did form part of their conditions?

    But if there isn't a ticket to show, let alone one with registration details??
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Dec 17, 3:18 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Yes, they’ve taken people to court for non display.
    • tincombe
    • By tincombe 3rd Dec 17, 9:58 PM
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    • 3 Thanks
    tincombe
    And were the respondents able to show that payment had been made?

    And the outcomes were?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Dec 17, 11:06 PM
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    KeithP
    And were the respondents able to show that payment had been made?

    And the outcomes were?
    Originally posted by tincombe
    See this letter from Gladstones.

    Towards the bottom of the first page of that letter it says:
    Pay & Display not displayed

    My client doesn't dispute that you may have paid for parking, however it is your obligation pursuant to the contract (the sign) to ensure that the ticket is displayed. As evident from from the photographs you didn't display a ticket in accordance with the terms.

    It is an integral part of the parking scheme that a valid ticket is displayed as otherwise the scheme would be unmanageable. If my client were to waive one charge on the basis put forward it would open the floodgates to the waiver of many more charges, making the parking management process that has been put in place entirely redundant.
    This case has not yet appeared at court, but it clearly shows that at least one element of the private parking industry are prepared to 'try very hard' to get even more money when they actually agree that the motorist has already paid for parking.
    .
    • tincombe
    • By tincombe 4th Dec 17, 7:06 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    tincombe
    ...that you may have paid..?

    Can you prove that you did?

    Not paying is one thing, not displaying is another. Issuing the parking notice could not be criticised, but this does not mean that a material breach has occurred, just that one might have. On receipt of evidence that this did not, then I am pretty certain that a court would not support any claim for the parking charge being claimed.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Dec 17, 12:42 PM
    • 4,731 Posts
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    KeithP
    Can you prove that you did?
    Originally posted by tincombe
    What??

    Are you asking me??

    All I'm doing is answering your question:
    And would, whoever the PPC is, bother to take a case to court based only on non-display, even if this did form part of their conditions?
    Clearly they would.

    I'll now leave you to your hypotheses.
    .
    • broughsupn
    • By broughsupn 6th Dec 17, 11:04 PM
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    broughsupn
    Still unsure
    I can provide the following proof.

    1 I was not the driver of the car as I was the driver of another car being tended to and relayed by a recovery company at the time. Documented timeline has been provided by the rescue company.

    2 I have a valid parking ticket with correct registration number covering the time of the alleged offence. ( I assume the attendant has a picture of a previous ticket for the car that was on the dashboard by mistake)

    3 I have returned to the car park to check the signage which appears totally inadequate. There are small signs on the lampposts white background black lettering. Pay and display is in capitols at the top, then underneath part of very small writing, ticket must be displayed on dash.

    Doing some reading / research it appeared to me that the best defense is not to appeal but wait for the request for driver info came and respond. I do not know without reasonable doubt who was driving.

    If it went to court will having a valid ticket and inadequate signage admissible or just hinder any defense.

    Is it worth fighting, part of me really wants to because of the deep sense of how unjust this is, but as a barrister once told me "unfortunately when it comes to a decision on law being ethical does not come into it"

    Regards

    Reggie
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