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  • FIRST POST
    • Nadeshkarine
    • By Nadeshkarine 2nd Dec 17, 12:36 PM
    • 13Posts
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    Nadeshkarine
    Neighbours seeking planning for extension with new party wall
    • #1
    • 2nd Dec 17, 12:36 PM
    Neighbours seeking planning for extension with new party wall 2nd Dec 17 at 12:36 PM
    Hello again - second post in as many weeks but unrelated to my previous issue (I guess housing issues are like busses? )
    Writing this on behalf of a family member who lives in a Victorian terrace.
    Their neighbours have applied for planning permission to do a kitchen extension into their side return, which includes building a new party wall on/across the boundary. I.e. It will eat into their garden by a couple of inches an affect a drain which they have up against the boundary.

    They're pensioners and I want to make sure they know their rights and understand the implications.
    The first they heard about this was when they received letters from third parties about the application. They don't really want to lose inches of their garden (there's plants up against the boundary fence now) or their drains affected. They have zero intention of extending into their side return so wouldn't realise any benefit of leveraging this wall.

    My question is would the planning permission be granted without them signing an agreement for them to build on their land? If they get the planning permission (they are going to object but I guess it could still be approved) does that allow them to encroach on their garden, can they force consent in this manner?
    Without their consent I presume the wall can only be up to their boundary and all foundations on their own side?
    Trying to understand how they've got as far into an application without an agreement from my relative. Until I looked at the plans my relative didn't realise it meant losing part of their flower bed so they haven't yet objected (nor signed anything however) and deadline is in the next 10 days.

    Thanks for any advice
Page 2
    • warby68
    • By warby68 3rd Dec 17, 9:42 AM
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    warby68
    Sometimes its worth considering the 'lesser of the evils' approach.

    No your relatives don't want the change but change is coming. Much better to be a party to the change.

    Being 'awkward' can likely mean a worse result both for short and long term.

    Accepting the wall and negotiating on its appearance, what you can do with it afterwards and what redress there will be for the messed up borders sounds much better than retaining an extra 6 inches of total mess which then need a fence which still won't hide the view of the alternative wall (which might even end up with a naughty window in it) and lots of impassable space between everything to keep pretty.

    I'm a complete lay person but that's what I infer from the discussion.

    Digging your heels in because you feel affronted by the neighbour is short-sighted at best.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 3rd Dec 17, 9:46 AM
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    Doozergirl
    Hello. Having just been through hell on earth with the same thing, I thought I would offer my advice.

    The footings are allowed to encroach on the other side, as long as a party wall agreement is in place. They are allowed to build from the other side, again with an agreement in place. This means they can destroy the garden on the other side. They would be required to reinstate the garden exactly as it was afterwards. What usually happens is that they would lodge the money in an account before the work starts.

    You are entitled to appoint your own party wall surveyor who looks after your interests. They pay for this surveyor.

    If they start work without a party wall agreement then you have to seek an injunction to stop the work.

    In my case, they started without an award. While I was away they dug up my garden. I now have a huge wall where once there was a fence covered in beautiful roses and clematis. I can't replant near the wall as anything I grow can't be attached to the wall itself. So I would have to put a fence in front of the wall, thus losing a few inches of garden.

    I was too late to get an injunction. My solicitor said it would cost up to £3 k to get one anyway. My neighbours view was that he had done everything the act allows, but just without the expense of an award.

    I am now faced with going to court to get the money for the garden. The stress has nearly killed me. Do I want to go through legal proceedings, having the stress carry on? Well, I want him to pay what he owes me, but many would say to let it go.

    I am trying to move. I thought I knew what hate meant, but I really didn't until I met this man I now have to live next door to.
    Originally posted by loveka
    This is sad.

    In a way he is right, but to not even reimburse you for plants is really wrong. I suspect your own legal costs would outweigh the cost of plants.

    There doesn’t have to be a formal Party Wall Award in place for work to go ahead if neighbours are agreeable. It does benefit all parties to speak to each other.

    If we want to protect our own land, we must not rely on a temporary party fence crossing the boundary or place plants against a fence owned by a neighbour. We are all better off having our own fences on our own side of the boundary if we want to grow plants against them. Or a proper party wall astride the boundary.

    In the case of a fence, it makes it a bit difficult for a builder to protect the neighbour’s fence entirely, but at least some effort can be made. If it’s a party fence coming down then it’s always going to be devasting to the neighbouring garden.

    In your case in point, if you’d have had a new party wall astride the boundary, you’d still be able to grow on an attractive wall and maybe benefit from the thermal properties of growing fruit etc against a wall and he would benefit from a slightly larger extension. As it is, you’ll have to erect a fence to grow against, which could be hard if the footings of the wall are on your land.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Nadeshkarine
    • By Nadeshkarine 3rd Dec 17, 10:06 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Nadeshkarine
    Sorry am new to the forums and finding it hard to multiquote but thanks for the additional inputs.

    But if these particular current owners of this house aren't ever going to want an extension themselves personally = they aren't likely to care if some future owner might want an extension.

    What they will care about is the "here and now" - of mucking up their flowerbeds and putting them through hassle that won't give them personally any benefit.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    That was basically the gut reaction - whilst yes it can make sense to build over the boundary, it's only if both sides do have an intention to extend. We can't know what future owners want, and they don't want to make calls about the current house based on some hypothetical future, rather what they currently want.

    Hang on. I’ve stopped reading here. Just because someone tells you something on a forum, it doesn’t mean it’s true. Saying ‘that’s what I wanted to hear’ does not make it fact, nor is an uninformed emotional response the right one.

    Knowledge on this board of the Party Wall Act is weak. I am certainly no expert but I do at least have some direct experience of it.

    A new party wall is allowed. They can ‘encroach’, they are not being cheeky if it is specifically a party wall, built astride the boundary.

    <snip>
    They can speak to a party wall surveyor. Not an internet forum about house buying, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Party Wall Act.

    A new party wall would encroach no more than the average fence post.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    Think my response might have been misconstrued, to be clear, I said "that's what I was hoping to confirm" - i.e. I wanted to confirm what their rights are/are not in regards to what neighbours can build on their land, and this seemed to be a clear cut answer. I've observed people on this board to be pretty clued up so hoped they could help.
    They do now have a party wall surveyor coming later this week, but were worried when I saw them about the impact to the garden. I hoped I could give some reassurance ahead of that.

    Hello. Having just been through hell on earth with the same thing, I thought I would offer my advice.

    The footings are allowed to encroach on the other side, as long as a party wall agreement is in place. They are allowed to build from the other side, again with an agreement in place. This means they can destroy the garden on the other side. They would be required to reinstate the garden exactly as it was afterwards. What usually happens is that they would lodge the money in an account before the work starts.

    You are entitled to appoint your own party wall surveyor who looks after your interests. They pay for this surveyor.

    If they start work without a party wall agreement then you have to seek an injunction to stop the work.

    In my case, they started without an award. While I was away they dug up my garden. I now have a huge wall where once there was a fence covered in beautiful roses and clematis. I can't replant near the wall as anything I grow can't be attached to the wall itself. So I would have to put a fence in front of the wall, thus losing a few inches of garden.

    I was too late to get an injunction. My solicitor said it would cost up to £3 k to get one anyway. My neighbours view was that he had done everything the act allows, but just without the expense of an award.

    I am now faced with going to court to get the money for the garden. The stress has nearly killed me. Do I want to go through legal proceedings, having the stress carry on? Well, I want him to pay what he owes me, but many would say to let it go.

    I am trying to move. I thought I knew what hate meant, but I really didn't until I met this man I now have to live next door to.
    Originally posted by loveka
    They absolutely do not want it to descend into this, and I'm sorry to hear about your situation.
    Their garden is really not that big - if they had 100ft they wouldn't care, but the side return is probably 1/3 of the space which is why it being dug up is upsetting them. They currently do have plants growing on the fence, so yes it is likely these would have to go.

    It seems it is best for us to wait and see what the surveyors come up with, hopefully we can get something both sides are happy with. I think the upset does come down to the way they've found out about it and the lack of any "coffee and cakes" approach. Having such a short timeframe to respond to the application has made them (and me also!) panic I think.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 3rd Dec 17, 10:12 AM
    • 1,975 Posts
    • 2,487 Thanks
    unforeseen
    Do they realise that by employing a party wall surveyor before notification under PWA has been given that the cost of it is theirs and not the neighbour's. Any work completed by the surveyor before PWA is invoked cannot be charged to the neighbour.
    Last edited by unforeseen; 03-12-2017 at 10:16 AM.
    • loveka
    • By loveka 3rd Dec 17, 10:13 AM
    • 355 Posts
    • 345 Thanks
    loveka
    You are not in a good place.

    How much of that is of your own making isn't possible for anyone else to determine, but if moving helps you to gain inner peace again, that's what you should do.

    Frankly, a bit of garden soil is worth very little, compared with one's wellbeing.
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    It's not really a bit of garden soil. It was my garden, grown by me for over 20 years. It was beautiful.

    The law allows someone to come along and destroy something that you love. My neighbour built a 15 metre wide extension. For the sake of a few inches he destroyed my garden.

    Afterwards, he told me he had done it to punish me, as I had objected to his plans!

    I can't stay living next door to someone who shows so little respect for me. It is sad, as I love this house.

    Ironically, I was planning an extension before he moved in. He told me he was going to make it impossible for me to have my extension by employing the most expensive party wall surveyor at my cost. He really is the epitome of a neighbour from hell.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 3rd Dec 17, 10:25 AM
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    Doozergirl
    Well, at least you know you can in fact build without employing a Party Wall Surveyor as he’s proven it.

    The PWA wouldn’t apply anyway as you wouldn’t be excavating deeper than his own foundations. No agreement needed!
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 3rd Dec 17, 10:46 AM
    • 23,680 Posts
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    Davesnave
    It's not really a bit of garden soil. It was my garden, grown by me for over 20 years. It was beautiful.

    The law allows someone to come along and destroy something that you love. My neighbour built a 15 metre wide extension. For the sake of a few inches he destroyed my garden.
    Originally posted by loveka
    However you look at it, it really is just a small sliver of garden, but in your mind it's become far more than that.

    I'm a gardener, so I know gardens can be created and re-created very quickly. Sometimes, it's a good thing to have a clear-out and start again. The RHS doesn't allow their gardens to be static.

    Four years ago, someone in a big digger carved a channel over 1metre deep and 10 metres long through the middle of our garden. Why doesn't matter. Today, no one would know that had happened.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 3rd Dec 17, 11:17 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    That is true - but we mustnt assume the plants are "bog standard - no problems to get - no sentimental attachments".

    Sometimes the plants people have in their gardens are ones that have been difficult to source or do have sentimental attachments (mothers favourite rose - which she gave to them or the like).
    #MeToo

    Ain't neva gonna learn to be a good "woman"
    • Lucky Duck
    • By Lucky Duck 3rd Dec 17, 2:25 PM
    • 125 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Lucky Duck
    Reading some of the posts here remind me of why I'm of the view that people ought to buy a house large enough for their forseable needs in the first place rather inconvenience (or worse) their neighbours with building projects.

    However, I suspect most will disagree with me on this.
    Last edited by Lucky Duck; 03-12-2017 at 4:35 PM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 3rd Dec 17, 4:11 PM
    • 10,032 Posts
    • 8,092 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    Reading some of the posts here remind me of why I'm of the view that people ought to buy a house large enough for their forseable in the needs in the first place rather inconvenience (or worse) their neighbours with building projects.

    However, I suspect most will disagree with me on this.
    Originally posted by Lucky Duck
    1. People often buy what they can afford at the time.

    2. Circumstances and lifestyles change

    3. A property has the potential to be a dream or near perfect home if it was altered or extended and meets other criteria

    Virtually every house I've lived in has been extended either during or after my occupation. On the estate I live you count the houses without extensions. Much, much quicker!
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 3rd Dec 17, 7:02 PM
    • 14,204 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    Reading some of the posts here remind me of why I'm of the view that people ought to buy a house large enough for their forseable needs in the first place rather inconvenience (or worse) their neighbours with building projects.

    However, I suspect most will disagree with me on this.
    Originally posted by Lucky Duck
    I'm going to agree with you.

    The circumstances of these new neighbours can't have gone and changed already since they moved in one would have thought - as they have only just moved in.

    So it's not like they moved in as a couple with one child and then had another one or the like and therefore needed an extra bedroom they may not have foreseen at the outset or one of them had had every intention of working in an office and has now decided to work from home instead.
    #MeToo

    Ain't neva gonna learn to be a good "woman"
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 3rd Dec 17, 7:07 PM
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    Doozergirl
    That is true - but we mustnt assume the plants are "bog standard - no problems to get - no sentimental attachments".

    Sometimes the plants people have in their gardens are ones that have been difficult to source or do have sentimental attachments (mothers favourite rose - which she gave to them or the like).
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention

    All the more reason not to grow stuff like that up someone else’s fence, within yards of the their house. Sentimental roses can’t take precence over everyone’s right to extend their home.

    Almost all off us are granted the right to extend and so it would be prudent to anticipate rather than get possessive when people exercise that.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 03-12-2017 at 7:12 PM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Nadeshkarine
    • By Nadeshkarine 3rd Dec 17, 7:43 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Nadeshkarine
    3. A property has the potential to be a dream or near perfect home if it was altered or extended and meets other criteria

    Virtually every house I've lived in has been extended either during or after my occupation. On the estate I live you count the houses without extensions. Much, much quicker!
    Originally posted by lincroft1710
    Yes in this case I think it is this, the house is very large (5 bedroom) but this extension is the usual side return extension to increase the kitchen space. Which I admit is an appealing extension, but it's a shame how close these houses are and outdoor space really is a premium.

    All the more reason not to grow stuff like that up someone else’s fence, within yards of the their house. Sentimental roses can’t take precence over everyone’s right to extend their home.

    Almost all off us are granted the right to extend and so it would be prudent to anticipate rather than get possessive when people exercise that.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    True, but it's a shared fence and if they didn't grow anything within yards of the neighbour's house, that garden would be barren! These pretty much are those small L shaped gardens you get in a block of terraces, a few metres wide and deep. The previous neighbours had been there decades with both sides growing items up to and on the fence.

    I wonder if they will begin to limit to extending on gardens in cities - feel like all these extensions and paving are storing up a lot of drainage issues for the future.
    Last edited by Nadeshkarine; 03-12-2017 at 7:46 PM.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 3rd Dec 17, 8:44 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    No-one has a "right" to an extension - they may have a "wish" to and that's somewhat different.

    Yep...I do know just how narrow these side returns can be anyway. Some of these courtyard gardens are so small that yes...an owner will use their "right" to put in plants right up to the edge.
    #MeToo

    Ain't neva gonna learn to be a good "woman"
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 4th Dec 17, 3:24 AM
    • 23,680 Posts
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    Davesnave
    No-one has a "right" to an extension - they may have a "wish" to and that's somewhat different.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    It's the middle of the night and I'm not at my brightest, but it seems to me that permitted development guidelines and planning conditions define what someone can do with their property.

    These rules define what someone may build as an extension as of right, without reference to others, and what needs further scrutiny.

    In the case under discussion, PP is being applied-for, so it seems the applicants have looked at the rules and concluded that they have no automatic right to extend in the manner they've planned.

    However, that such rights exist, is beyond doubt.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 4th Dec 17, 6:14 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    There's legal "ability" to do so and a (moral) "right" (or otherwise) to do so.
    #MeToo

    Ain't neva gonna learn to be a good "woman"
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 4th Dec 17, 7:55 AM
    • 24,053 Posts
    • 66,667 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    No-one has a "right" to an extension - they may have a "wish" to and that's somewhat different.

    Yep...I do know just how narrow these side returns can be anyway. Some of these courtyard gardens are so small that yes...an owner will use their "right" to put in plants right up to the edge.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    They are formally called “Permitted Development Rights”.

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200187/your_responsibilities/37/planning_permission/2

    Of course people have the right to plant where they wish, but they need to be aware of other people’s legal Rights too and that those will take precedent over a sentimental rose bush for all the right (moral) reasons!

    Just because you sit on one side of the (literal) fence and feel like it’s all a purposeful invasion, it does not make the other side wrong.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 8th Dec 17, 2:38 PM
    • 11,414 Posts
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    theonlywayisup
    SPAM
    Originally posted by Lacuna
    Not getting the message yet?
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 8th Dec 17, 3:02 PM
    • 14,204 Posts
    • 38,505 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Sounds like a valid post imo - not spam.
    #MeToo

    Ain't neva gonna learn to be a good "woman"
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 8th Dec 17, 3:12 PM
    • 3,873 Posts
    • 7,879 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    No, money, he's raking up all the ancient posts on party wall surveyors to promote a business/marketing interest, including threads a year old and resolved.

    As spammy as a 1970's comedy sketch set in a spam-serving restaurant, singing about spam, whilst waving spam fritters around.

    His very name defines his usefulness to the forum!

    Oh, and I suspect you wouldn't agree with him, if you check his links out!

    Edit...
    Now he's raking them up from the DIY forum!
    Last edited by DaftyDuck; 08-12-2017 at 3:15 PM.
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