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    • debk123
    • By debk123 30th Nov 17, 10:30 PM
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    debk123
    Tenant's ticket in my leasehold car park
    • #1
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:30 PM
    Tenant's ticket in my leasehold car park 30th Nov 17 at 10:30 PM
    I've read through the sticky and some of the threads but can't find a situation quite like mine and want to approach it correctly.

    The flat I own (leasehold) but rent out to a tenant has a car park with unallocated spaces. The lease states I have the right to leave a motor car in the car park. There is no mention of a permit and nothing stands out as saying they can alter the lease without the leaseholders agreement. The car park has never been full although there have occasionally been abandoned cars left in it (i.e. not clear why they felt a parking company were necessary other than the commission they are presumably going to make,,,).

    The management company have very recently employed Gemini Parking Solutions and asked for our number plates/tenants' number plates. I inadvertently supplied a number plate for our tenant which was one letter out. She received a PCN last week, let me know and I immediately contacted the management company to ask them to cancel the ticket. The next day when she received a second ticket and I checked the photo of the ticket I realised the number plate I had originally submitted was wrong.

    I let the management company know about the wrong number plate and they have said that they can cancel the tickets (later saying it wasn't them that could cancel them, but Gemini), but I would have to pay £15 per cancelled ticket.

    I have two main queries:
    1. Can I sort this out on behalf of my tenant, or does she have to be involved? I am worried she would not cope well if demands for payment/debt collection got sent to the flat.
    2. Should I stick with my complaints to the management company i.e. do they count as the landholder and do they have the power to cancel the tickets for free? Or do I need to engage with Gemini?

    I recognise that the management company are taking the mick with this, but not sure how to proceed as the PCNs are not 'mine' per se.

    Thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Nov 17, 10:43 PM
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:43 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:43 PM
    in theory the tenant has to sort them out because they are in that tenants name

    having said that , the management company should have had the contract written such that they can cancel tickets free of charge

    as there is nothing in your lease about displaying permits , or the tenants for that matter, they are under no obligation to do so

    the problem here is that if you dont sort it out , the tenant runs the risk of a court case within 6 years , even if they subsequently win

    morally, you should sort this out and give the M.A. some stick, pointing to cases like JOPSON and the fact that GEMINI are not there to hound tenants who have "peaceful enjoyment"

    that is my take on it , BUT you should read some of the OWN SPACEW tenant threads to see the true picture as I have no legal training

    the PPC has no right to vary the lease and the leaseholder has "primacy of contract"

    read this thread too, lots of good info in it

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5015782
    Last edited by Redx; 30-11-2017 at 11:17 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Dec 17, 6:36 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #3
    • 1st Dec 17, 6:36 AM
    • #3
    • 1st Dec 17, 6:36 AM
    The lease states I have the right to leave a motor car in the car park
    The request for the tenant's VRM appears to be the Managing Agents creating a separate class of people with access to the common areas as IMHO they would not have otherwise.

    The £15 seems a small price to pay to allow you to rent out a flat that might otherwise be unrentable without access to parking.

    A bargain.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 1st Dec 17, 7:59 AM
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    unforeseen
    • #4
    • 1st Dec 17, 7:59 AM
    • #4
    • 1st Dec 17, 7:59 AM
    If you want to fight this on behalf of your tenant and possibly go to court with it, I suggest you get the tenant to name you as the driver so the claim transfers to you.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Dec 17, 8:17 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #5
    • 1st Dec 17, 8:17 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Dec 17, 8:17 AM
    you get the tenant to name you as the driver so the claim transfers to you.
    That will have foreseen and not unforeseen consequences. What made you think this was a good idea?
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 1st Dec 17, 9:25 AM
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    unforeseen
    • #6
    • 1st Dec 17, 9:25 AM
    • #6
    • 1st Dec 17, 9:25 AM
    That will have foreseen and not unforeseen consequences. What made you think this was a good idea?
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    I never said it was a good or bad idea. It is a possible solution. It all depends on what action/who has been contacted etc.

    I don't assume people are idiots and have to explain everything to them etc. If somebody is savvy enough to be a landlord then they have enough working brain cells to work out whether that course is an option to consider.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st Dec 17, 11:28 AM
    • 1,192 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 1st Dec 17, 11:28 AM
    • #7
    • 1st Dec 17, 11:28 AM
    Lying is rarely a good option, and not to be advised on here.

    TELL the managing agent that your lease allows you to park, make no mention of needing to enter into a contract with a third party to do so, and this third party are not only strangers to the lease, they have zero consideration to offer you OR the tenant - as yuo already have the right to park a vehicle there.

    SEnd them a cease and desist.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 1st Dec 17, 11:54 AM
    • 1,764 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #8
    • 1st Dec 17, 11:54 AM
    • #8
    • 1st Dec 17, 11:54 AM
    The £15 might be what they have to pay Gemini to cancel the ticket. It might be in the contract they have with Gemini that they have the power to request cancellations but will be charged.


    You can fight this on the basis that they had no right to bring in a parking company etc etc. The arguments in support of that are all over this forum.


    However, the specific problem you have is that you weren't the driver, and you made a mistake which has led to her getting the tickets which rightly leads to you wanting to take responsibility. You can't legally take over responsibility unless you were driving.


    So if you don't want to get caught up with arguing the toss and potentially submitting your tenant to the risk of proceedings/aggressive chasing letters demanding hundreds of pounds for the two tickets, I think pay the £15 in exchange for a formal letter from Gemini confirming they've been cancelled. I think you can continue to deal with the managing agents but explain that you want written evidence of cancellation.


    That of course solves your immediate problem. however, you will find that residents, including your tenant and future tenants, will find these people a problem. It is human error to sometimes forget to display the permit or change their cars and there is no proper clear process for logging their new VRNs. They then get hit with tickets.


    If you have an issue with this and think it was not necessary to bring in Gemini, then once the issue of these tickets is resolved you might wish to pursue this with the managing agents and challenge their right to have done this and the validity of any future tickets. The basis upon which to do so is set out in detail in two threads, hairray and Daniel san.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 1st Dec 17, 12:30 PM
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    DoaM
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 12:30 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 12:30 PM
    It is human error to sometimes forget to display the permit or change their cars and there is no proper clear process for logging their new VRNs. They then get hit with tickets.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    It sounds to me that what is currently operating (*) is a whitelist. OP needs to ensure that the correct VRM is updated in the whitelist so as to prevent further PCNs. That's not to say that Gemini (or another PPC) may not change the "rules" in future if they're not milking enough profit from the site.

    (*) Whether Gemini have a right to operate is a separate matter; as it stands they're probably infringing on leaseholder and tenant rights.
    Diary of a madman
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    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Dec 17, 3:23 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    Whether Gemini have a right to operate is a separate matter; as it stands they're probably infringing on leaseholder and tenant rights.
    Will have to disagree on that one as the space is not leased to the OP. It communal space belonging to the lessor. The lessees appear to be allowed on it by arrangement. The Lessor or at least the MA appears to be extending the privilege to tenants.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 1st Dec 17, 4:23 PM
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    DoaM
    And I'll have to disagree with your disagreement.

    OP states that their lease gives them ...

    the right to leave a motor car in the car park. There is no mention of a permit and nothing stands out as saying they can alter the lease without the leaseholders agreement.
    Originally posted by debk123
    Assuming there's also nothing to prevent the property being sub-let, nor restricting rights to sub-let tenants (either in the main lease or tenancy agreement), then the tenant inherits these same rights from the leaseholder.

    Therefore, as there's nothing in the lease to restrict parking or that allows the MA to employ a PPC, the PPC is thus infringing on the tenant's rights.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Dec 17, 4:43 PM
    • 1,820 Posts
    • 3,218 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Have a read of Link v Blaney and come back.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
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