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  • FIRST POST
    • plunet
    • By plunet 30th Nov 17, 5:02 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 18Thanks
    plunet
    y-cam homemonitor ending free cloud recording
    • #1
    • 30th Nov 17, 5:02 PM
    y-cam homemonitor ending free cloud recording 30th Nov 17 at 5:02 PM
    I've got some Y-Cam Homemonitor CCTV cameras, and when purchased these came with "Lifetime 7 day cloud recording", but it seems that Y-Cam have had a change of heart and T&Cs and are withdrawing the 7 day free cloud recording for devices that have been active for more than one year.

    This is obvious a significant change in their service proposition and their T&Cs and what they advertised their products to come with.

    I guess others might be picking up on this. Do others have any suggestions on whether we should fight this?
Page 4
    • ballyblack
    • By ballyblack 5th Dec 17, 9:24 AM
    • 3,470 Posts
    • 1,782 Thanks
    ballyblack
    Ycam has responded to some angry comments on Facebook spawning plenty of more critical comments.
    a fiasco of their own making


    https://www.facebook.com/pg/YcamHomeMonitor/posts/?ref=page_internal

    .
    Last edited by ballyblack; 05-12-2017 at 9:26 AM.
    • plunet
    • By plunet 5th Dec 17, 11:31 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    plunet
    I have put the following request into the Consumer Advice service via their web form.

    Hello, I am the owner of 3 domestic CCTV cameras sold by Y-Cam Solutions Ltd under their Homemonitor brand. The products were purchased through Amazon UK, and Y-Cam were on the face of it a trusted brand. In an increasingly crowded market of domestic CCTV, Y-Cam devices unique selling point and their main route to market was that their cameras came with a free cloud-based recording service.

    Their products were more expensive than their competitors, but this was due to the added feature of the cloud based recording, they clearly advertised that they came 7 days free cloud recording in online reviews, on Amazon, on their packaging and documentation, and didn't state any limitations. There was an optional upgrade to increase your recording capacity from 7 days to 30 days (Y-Cam Plus), and the product came with a one month free trial of the 30 day service.

    Last week it appears that Y-Cam Solutions Ltd no longer wishes to offer the free cloud based backup and wishes to charge £2.99 per month per camera to maintain this service. If we do not elect to pay this subscription then the cameras become stream only, and for me this will will be a significant change and departure from their advertised and marketed purpose, and the cameras will be no longer fit for purpose.
    I query whether Y-Cam Solutions Ltd have the right to do this based upon the absence of details in their terms about the specifics of the free cloud recording service and the way they have marketed their products.

    It appears that many other customers of Y-Cam are facing a similar issue. Just search for Y-Cam on facebook and twitter, TrustedReviews website for Y-Cam https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.y-cam.com and also refer to this forum thread http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5752846

    Can you please review whether Y-Cam have the right to withdraw their cloud based recording service which was clearly advertised as being "free forever".
    Originally posted by plunet
    Here's the response I have received:
    Thank you for your enquiry to the Citizens Advice consumer service dated 03/12/2017. Your reference number is XXXXXXXX and should be quoted for any further correspondence in relation to this issue.

    We understand from your email a trader now wants to charge for service which was previously free.

    You would like advice regarding this.

    Your rights and obligation

    Under common law, when you enter into a contract, both parties are bound by any terms and conditions that have formed part of any pre-contract negotiations. We would advise you to thoroughly read these to see if the trader is able to charge.

    If nothing related to your issue is included in the terms and conditions, or, the trader is not following terms included, you may be able to hold the trader in breach of contract.

    You may be able to seek redress from the trader for a breach of contract by repudiating the contract; this means bringing the contract to an end. Alternatively, you may request the trader honour the contract as agreed and seek damages; damages could be for a monetary amount you feel is reasonable to compensate for the breach.

    The burden of proof is on yourself as the consumer, therefore you will need to provide evidence if the trader is not complying with the terms and conditions.

    Your next steps

    We would suggest that you contact the trader and request a copy of their formal complaints procedure and follow this. If the trader does not have a complaints procedure, we recommend you send a letter outlining the reasons for your complaint. We would suggest setting a reasonable deadline for a response, keeping a copy of any correspondence for your records and sending any letters by recorded delivery; that way the mail will be tracked and signed for. Template letters can be found here, and a sample of recorded delivery can be found here.

    As part of your complaint we would recommend you ask the trader if they are a member of an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme (ADR) or, if they’re not, would they be willing to use a non-membership based scheme. ADR schemes are independent bodies that offer services such as arbitration or mediation if your complaint is still unresolved after following the trader’s complaints process.

    What we will do

    We will notify Trading Standards of information you have provided, there is no commitment for them to contact you directly, and they will only contact you if they deem it necessary. Whilst this does not help you resolve your dispute, it gives Trading Standards vital intelligence on how a trader is conducting their business.

    If you would like to discuss this further please call us on 03454 04 05 06 or reply to this email.
    As far as I can see, from my reading of the T&Cs that were in force at the time of the purchase there was nothing explicity stated regarding the 7 day free recording service. Please correct me if you think I am wrong. Therefore the contract would be formed upon the basis of what was advertised initially on their packaging and instructions, and possibly extended to other collatoral like advertising and ecommerce store descriptions. Whilst their T&Cs clearly state that they can be changed from time to time with 14 days notice, this is a detrimental change to which the consumer has little remedy other than to pay for the previously free service, and is clearly at odds with the intent of the service advertised. I think a small claims court judge would probably find in favour of the consumer for any reasonable remedy they care to request. It will be interersting if Trading Standards now pick up on this, I think it would be more likely if more people submit cases to the Citizens Advice consumer service.

    I work in IT, and the cost of cloud computing has decreased in recent years, espeically at the volume of storage and bandwidth that Y-Cam will be purchasing (from Amazon). Despite this I think Y-Cam have seemingly made a miscalulation in the premium on the purchase price of the cameras to fund the 7 day free cloud service "forever" which is not enough in the face of a lack of paid for Y-Cam Plus (30 day) subscriptions, or the cameras are lasting longer than Y-Cam intended and are being "too reliable". This is ultimately their mistake, but it seems like it could be a costly one.
    • britishboy
    • By britishboy 5th Dec 17, 3:19 PM
    • 2,367 Posts
    • 263 Thanks
    britishboy
    Ive had OK rom Amazon to return the 2 x cams I bought new in July this year, they did cost me £129 and £99. Been offered a refund of £99 and £79 for them, is this right? Or should i get the full amount?
    • PaulTWarwick
    • By PaulTWarwick 5th Dec 17, 3:24 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PaulTWarwick
    Amazon Return
    I've just had two cameras from February accepted for return to Amazon at the full price I purchased them at. A credit of £250 once they receive them back... They were also OK that I don't have the original packaging.
    • PaulTWarwick
    • By PaulTWarwick 5th Dec 17, 3:36 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PaulTWarwick
    I have one Y-Cam camera that I can't return as I purchased via eBay two years ago. I won't be paying Y-Cam for any subscription and will just use it in future as a standard webcam with no recording.
    I agree with all the previous posts and that they should have kept to the original commitment for a FREE rolling 7 day storage. They have managed to destroy the trust of their customers and damage their brand reputation so much that I would imagine that they will have real difficulties selling products going forward. Even if I thought the subscription was reasonable, I can't imagine they will still be operating this time next year to continue delivering the service. I have already ordered my replacement cameras from one of their competitors !
    • ballyblack
    • By ballyblack 5th Dec 17, 3:47 PM
    • 3,470 Posts
    • 1,782 Thanks
    ballyblack
    Been offered a refund of £99 and £79 for them, is this right? Or should i get the full amount?
    As far as I know Amazon is refunding the price you orginally paid
    • hichoslew
    • By hichoslew 5th Dec 17, 5:02 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hichoslew
    As far as I can see, most people are fine if pre-existing customers are not affected by the change. I genuinely believe Y-cam has also analysed this option, which however is not something they are willing to be committed to. What this implies is that Y-cam is well aware that without forcing the huge "majority" (as they stated on their Facebook page) of their existing customer base to pay, they are unlikely to survive by just charging the new customers.

    This clearly indicates the nature of the change and further emphases that lifetime free cloud storage was the whole selling point. The camera products and the app are just not competitive enough in any other way. This is at the very least false advertising regulated under Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.
    • anewhope
    • By anewhope 5th Dec 17, 6:34 PM
    • 4,332 Posts
    • 2,872 Thanks
    anewhope
    Here's the response I have received:
    Thank you for your enquiry to the Citizens Advice consumer service dated 03/12/2017. Your reference number is XXXXXXXX and should be quoted for any further correspondence in relation to this issue.

    We understand from your email a trader now wants to charge for service which was previously free.

    You would like advice regarding this.

    Your rights and obligation

    Under common law, when you enter into a contract, both parties are bound by any terms and conditions that have formed part of any pre-contract negotiations. We would advise you to thoroughly read these to see if the trader is able to charge.

    If nothing related to your issue is included in the terms and conditions, or, the trader is not following terms included, you may be able to hold the trader in breach of contract.

    You may be able to seek redress from the trader for a breach of contract by repudiating the contract; this means bringing the contract to an end. Alternatively, you may request the trader honour the contract as agreed and seek damages; damages could be for a monetary amount you feel is reasonable to compensate for the breach.

    The burden of proof is on yourself as the consumer, therefore you will need to provide evidence if the trader is not complying with the terms and conditions.

    Your next steps

    We would suggest that you contact the trader and request a copy of their formal complaints procedure and follow this. If the trader does not have a complaints procedure, we recommend you send a letter outlining the reasons for your complaint. We would suggest setting a reasonable deadline for a response, keeping a copy of any correspondence for your records and sending any letters by recorded delivery; that way the mail will be tracked and signed for. Template letters can be found here, and a sample of recorded delivery can be found here.

    As part of your complaint we would recommend you ask the trader if they are a member of an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme (ADR) or, if they’re not, would they be willing to use a non-membership based scheme. ADR schemes are independent bodies that offer services such as arbitration or mediation if your complaint is still unresolved after following the trader’s complaints process.

    What we will do

    We will notify Trading Standards of information you have provided, there is no commitment for them to contact you directly, and they will only contact you if they deem it necessary. Whilst this does not help you resolve your dispute, it gives Trading Standards vital intelligence on how a trader is conducting their business.

    If you would like to discuss this further please call us on 03454 04 05 06 or reply to this email.
    As far as I can see, from my reading of the T&Cs that were in force at the time of the purchase there was nothing explicity stated regarding the 7 day free recording service. Please correct me if you think I am wrong. Therefore the contract would be formed upon the basis of what was advertised initially on their packaging and instructions, and possibly extended to other collatoral like advertising and ecommerce store descriptions. Whilst their T&Cs clearly state that they can be changed from time to time with 14 days notice, this is a detrimental change to which the consumer has little remedy other than to pay for the previously free service, and is clearly at odds with the intent of the service advertised. I think a small claims court judge would probably find in favour of the consumer for any reasonable remedy they care to request. It will be interersting if Trading Standards now pick up on this, I think it would be more likely if more people submit cases to the Citizens Advice consumer service.

    I work in IT, and the cost of cloud computing has decreased in recent years, espeically at the volume of storage and bandwidth that Y-Cam will be purchasing (from Amazon). Despite this I think Y-Cam have seemingly made a miscalulation in the premium on the purchase price of the cameras to fund the 7 day free cloud service "forever" which is not enough in the face of a lack of paid for Y-Cam Plus (30 day) subscriptions, or the cameras are lasting longer than Y-Cam intended and are being "too reliable". This is ultimately their mistake, but it seems like it could be a costly one.
    Originally posted by plunet
    You need a copy of the exact T&Cs you agreed to. Without these it will be very difficult to ascertain whether they are acting in the proper way or not.
    • Tisanes
    • By Tisanes 5th Dec 17, 7:13 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Tisanes
    Amazon
    I have received a full refund from Amaz for 4 out of 5 cameras, bought over past 3 years ( most without boxes) since the 1st Dec. They seem to now be jibing at the 5th, advising me to contact manufacturer. Will perservere
    • ballyblack
    • By ballyblack 5th Dec 17, 7:25 PM
    • 3,470 Posts
    • 1,782 Thanks
    ballyblack
    I have received a full refund from Amaz for 4 out of 5 cameras, bought over past 3 years ( most without boxes) since the 1st Dec.
    There must be thousands of these cameras being returned to amazon.

    Any ideas what Amazon is going to do with these old weather beaten cameras??
    • iDragon
    • By iDragon 6th Dec 17, 4:06 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    iDragon
    I doubt it's thousands, but wouldn't be surprised at hundreds.
    • plunet
    • By plunet 6th Dec 17, 10:00 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    plunet
    Looks like the IT Press have now picked up on this issue...

    Y-cam removes free cloud storage for its cameras
    • Craigalex40
    • By Craigalex40 6th Dec 17, 11:54 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Craigalex40
    Amazon are currently trying me they can't/won't do anything and y cam are ignoring me.. nowhere to go.
    • ballyblack
    • By ballyblack 7th Dec 17, 9:11 AM
    • 3,470 Posts
    • 1,782 Thanks
    ballyblack
    Amazon are currently trying me they can't/won't do anything
    That is not my experience and several others on here.

    I bought from Amazon itself, I am already refunded

    what are Amazon saying to you?

    .
    Last edited by ballyblack; 07-12-2017 at 10:09 AM.
    • plunet
    • By plunet 7th Dec 17, 11:37 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    plunet
    Looks like the IT Press have now picked up on this issue...

    Y-cam removes free cloud storage for its cameras
    Originally posted by plunet
    Plently of shares across Social Media for yesterday's article in the Register. Now the inquirer has picked up on the story, and points out that in an unrelated interview with the CEO a month ago nothing was mentioned then about the change to the inclusive free cloud service.

    Y-Cam shuts down 'unsustainable' free cloud recording offer
    • FrugalMav
    • By FrugalMav 7th Dec 17, 12:25 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    FrugalMav
    Dam was about to contact Amazon to arrange return of 2 of my Y-cams and looking at my email i can see i ended up purchasing it directly from Y-Cam as they were on offer at the time

    This would not be the end of the world if they at least enable other options like saving to my NAS but no options i can see or a way of streaming the feed through other software?
    • plunet
    • By plunet 7th Dec 17, 2:10 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    plunet
    Dam was about to contact Amazon to arrange return of 2 of my Y-cams and looking at my email i can see i ended up purchasing it directly from Y-Cam as they were on offer at the time

    This would not be the end of the world if they at least enable other options like saving to my NAS but no options i can see or a way of streaming the feed through other software?
    Originally posted by FrugalMav
    If you used a credit card, try your card company, assuming you have approached Y-Cam and asked for a refund.
    • john85
    • By john85 7th Dec 17, 7:34 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    john85
    As far as I can see, most people are fine if pre-existing customers are not affected by the change. I genuinely believe Y-cam has also analysed this option, which however is not something they are willing to be committed to. What this implies is that Y-cam is well aware that without forcing the huge "majority" (as they stated on their Facebook page) of their existing customer base to pay, they are unlikely to survive by just charging the new customers.

    This clearly indicates the nature of the change and further emphases that lifetime free cloud storage was the whole selling point. The camera products and the app are just not competitive enough in any other way. This is at the very least false advertising regulated under Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.
    Originally posted by hichoslew
    I’d agree, they clearly thought this over before committing to such a big step, and trashing their relationship with existing customers. And to do it with an incredible 14 day notice period! It can only really mean one of two things, this company is either led by some very greedy and unscrupulous people, or its in a very bad place financially.

    And who is going to sign up for their future storage plans knowing that?
    • JoeB1000
    • By JoeB1000 7th Dec 17, 11:33 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JoeB1000
    Tech Industry including Y-cam is a cluster
    Seems that the tech industry is the only industry that tries to get away with this kind of crap. I have a pile of hardware and software that either never worked or stopped working due to companies no longer supporting their products or breaking the product with updates or changes. Unfortunately, the tech industry is replete with individuals who do not have the skill set to do their jobs properly and make stupid decisions leaving customers with products that do not work and are a waste of money.


    Y-cam's decision to renege on their agreement to provide free 7-day cloud service is just another example of how messed up this industry is. Y-cam charged a premium for a mediocre, at best, IP camera, and people decided to buy it anyway for the cloud service which was included in the price of the camera. Y-cam's decision to stop providing cloud service as agreed should be considered a fraudulent move.


    And let me suggest a scenario which gets me back to my first comment regarding the ineptness of the engineers and developers who get hired in droves by companies thinking that they are getting labor for cheap (but instead get people that cause more problems than they solve). I have had the y-cam IP camera for over 3 years and have dealt with on-going technical issues that never get fixed or dealt with bugs that arise when someone f's up an update (which happens all the time - they never get it right). So one of the biggest issues that I have run into which has never been successfully addressed by Y-cam is the triggering of recordings due to motion detection. I have fought with the setting for years with no real solution to get the camera to record only when necessary when motion is detected. Instead, the camera records either too little or too much, and often times the recordings continue on for hours instead of being limited to a few minutes. These long recorded videos probably do take up space on the server, but is that my fault???? No, it is the fault of Y-cam and the ignorant engineers who can not seem to fix these types of issues.


    I do not know if others have experienced these types of issues with their cameras, but I suspect that I am not the only one who has run into issues. And if too many videos are being uploaded to the server and if the software/firmware is faulty and does not stop recording when it should, then maybe we are paying the price for Y-cam's inability to address issues. Instead, they just want to increase their revenue (illegally) to cover these problems instead of actually fixing the problems.

    Not to mention that now they want to charge for a service that was included with the product, and Y-cam expects that the customer would be happy paying for a service that has so many problems. I can not even download the videos as a group due to server errors, so I have to spend my time finding work-around and downloading only a few videos at a time. This is unacceptable, and Y-cam has now been added to my list of crap companies, and I hope to become one of their biggest detractors.
    • ballyblack
    • By ballyblack 8th Dec 17, 10:03 AM
    • 3,470 Posts
    • 1,782 Thanks
    ballyblack
    From Ycam face book

    Since Y-cam announced its decision to limit Y-cam’s free cloud recording service to 1 year we have been very aware of the disappointment and frustration that this decision has caused. So without any reservation we want to say sorry.
    Sorry that we had to make the change and sorry that we didn’t communicate the reasons for the change better with you, our customers. Simply put, the cost of hosting our advanced cloud-based service has reached such a level that not charging for it was commercially and economically impossible.
    We understand that some of our users see this decision as unacceptable and again I want to apologise for that. Y-cam has always put customer service first and we will work very hard to try and address all your concerns and we thank you for your continued support.
    On behalf of all us at Y-cam we say “sorry”.


    Too little, too late
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