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  • FIRST POST
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 30th Nov 17, 1:43 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Benjamin N
    Moved from support group to Wrag, need urgent help/advice
    • #1
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:43 PM
    Moved from support group to Wrag, need urgent help/advice 30th Nov 17 at 1:43 PM
    I a in desperate need of advice following a letter I received today stating that my Esa has been cut by £50 every two weeks.

    For the past two years I have been in the support group due to anxiety chronic insomnia and severe dissociative symptoms/rerealization.

    In August, I went to an aria meeting an didn't hear anything back until today, staying that I am now in the work related activity group.

    I am physically and mentally a thousand times worse than I was previously and have been referred to a sleep clinic, psychiatrist and community psychiatric team in my area.

    I have severe deralization symptoms that affect my ability to concentrate and my awareness is reduced to almost nothing, it is severe an debilitating.

    I phone esa and was told I received NO points, which can't be correct because I'm in the wrag group. He must have meant in the limited work capability section.

    I checked against he descriptors and it seems that I have at least one which would allow me into the support group. My doctors said they cannot write letters, but have given me a sick note for three months. Will this help or not, or could it worsen the situation?

    These are the descriptors I think are applicable to me to be put in the support group.


    1. Activity 10: Awareness of hazard

    Descriptors:

    Reduced awareness of everyday hazards, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, leads to a significant risk of:
    (a) injury to self or others; or
    (b) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.

    I have a significant risk, during altered stayed of consciousness of falling, moving into traffic and otherwise hurting myself.

    2.
    Activity 12: Coping with change

    Descriptors:
    Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.

    I am so dissociated at stages that I find it near impossible to adapt to changes in routine. Alongside OCD that stops me from completing daily tasks properly (obsessive cleanliness)
    Activity 13: Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptors:
    Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.

    I'm an not sure on this, I have such bad panic and anxiety that seeing anyone in a dissociated state is not ok.

    Activity 14: Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptor:
    Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

    I have violent outburst in public and will often shout or hit objects (never towards people).



    What can I do? This couldn't have come at a worse possible time during the winter. I was barely supporting myself on the support rate.

    Please help me make an appeal.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 30th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    • 1,752 Posts
    • 1,584 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    I a in desperate need of advice following a letter I received today stating that my Esa has been cut by £50 every two weeks.

    For the past two years I have been in the support group due to anxiety chronic insomnia and severe dissociative symptoms/rerealization.

    In August, I went to an aria meeting an didn't hear anything back until today, staying that I am now in the work related activity group.

    I am physically and mentally a thousand times worse than I was previously and have been referred to a sleep clinic, psychiatrist and community psychiatric team in my area.

    I have severe deralization symptoms that affect my ability to concentrate and my awareness is reduced to almost nothing, it is severe an debilitating.

    I phone esa and was told I received NO points, which can't be correct because I'm in the wrag group. He must have meant in the limited work capability section.

    I checked against he descriptors and it seems that I have at least one which would allow me into the support group. My doctors said they cannot write letters, but have given me a sick note for three months. Will this help or not, or could it worsen the situation?

    These are the descriptors I think are applicable to me to be put in the support group.


    1. Activity 10: Awareness of hazard

    Descriptors:

    Reduced awareness of everyday hazards, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, leads to a significant risk of:
    (a) injury to self or others; or
    (b) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.

    I have a significant risk, during altered stayed of consciousness of falling, moving into traffic and otherwise hurting myself.

    2.
    Activity 12: Coping with change

    Descriptors:
    Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.

    I am so dissociated at stages that I find it near impossible to adapt to changes in routine. Alongside OCD that stops me from completing daily tasks properly (obsessive cleanliness)
    Activity 13: Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptors:
    Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.

    I'm an not sure on this, I have such bad panic and anxiety that seeing anyone in a dissociated state is not ok.

    Activity 14: Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptor:
    Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

    I have violent outburst in public and will often shout or hit objects (never towards people).



    What can I do? This couldn't have come at a worse possible time during the winter. I was barely supporting myself on the support rate.

    Please help me make an appeal.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Benjamin N
    A fit/sick note will not help you because you're already in a group.

    Your next step will be to ask for a mandatory Reconsideration. You have 1 month from the date of the decision to ask for this. I would advice you to put your request in writing stating the reasons why you disagree with the decision and also pointing out the descriptors above that you think should get you into the Support Group again.

    Please bear in mind that 80% of MR decisions remain the same so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal. Appearing in person at your Tribunal will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour. 65% of those who appear in person have a decision in their favour. Good luck.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 30th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    • 3,018 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    epitome
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    Maybe you got no points and were put into WRAG on risk (reg 29)

    You need Reg 35 risk for Support Group
    • epitome
    • By epitome 30th Nov 17, 9:02 PM
    • 3,018 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    epitome
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:02 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:02 PM
    I a in desperate need of advice following a letter I received today stating that my Esa has been cut by £50 every two weeks.

    For the past two years I have been in the support group due to anxiety chronic insomnia and severe dissociative symptoms/rerealization.

    In August, I went to an aria meeting an didn't hear anything back until today, staying that I am now in the work related activity group.

    I am physically and mentally a thousand times worse than I was previously and have been referred to a sleep clinic, psychiatrist and community psychiatric team in my area.

    I have severe deralization symptoms that affect my ability to concentrate and my awareness is reduced to almost nothing, it is severe an debilitating.

    I phone esa and was told I received NO points, which can't be correct because I'm in the wrag group. He must have meant in the limited work capability section.

    I checked against he descriptors and it seems that I have at least one which would allow me into the support group. My doctors said they cannot write letters, but have given me a sick note for three months. Will this help or not, or could it worsen the situation?

    These are the descriptors I think are applicable to me to be put in the support group.
    Originally posted by Benjamin N
    1. Activity 10: Awareness of hazard

    Descriptors:

    Reduced awareness of everyday hazards, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, leads to a significant risk of:
    (a) injury to self or others; or
    (b) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.

    I have a significant risk, during altered stayed of consciousness of falling, moving into traffic and otherwise hurting myself.
    Why do you get altered states of conciousness? Is this documented?

    2.
    Activity 12: Coping with change

    Descriptors:
    Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.

    I am so dissociated at stages that I find it near impossible to adapt to changes in routine. Alongside OCD that stops me from completing daily tasks properly (obsessive cleanliness)
    Have you got anything documented to show you cannot cope with any minor change?


    Activity 13: Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptors:
    Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.

    I'm an not sure on this, I have such bad panic and anxiety that seeing anyone in a dissociated state is not ok.
    Activity 14: Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder

    Descriptor:
    Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

    I have violent outburst in public and will often shout or hit objects (never towards people).
    On a daily basis? and is it documented?

    What can I do? This couldn't have come at a worse possible time during the winter. I was barely supporting myself on the support rate.

    Please help me make an appeal.

    Thanks
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 30th Nov 17, 9:39 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:39 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:39 PM
    Why do you get altered states of conciousness? Is this documented?
    Originally posted by epitome
    I have patches of lost awareness and dissociate heavily due to derealization, I cannot concentrate even on simple words when it happens, my vision is distorted and I become very unstable. I have a letter from the Brighton and Hove wellbeing service stating I was to start being treated for the symptoms I mentioned and also chronic insomnia. They could only treat the anxiety root, but I will have it in a couple of days. I only had two sessions and had to stop but I also mentioned this to the previous therapist I saw, with which I had full 8 sessions.

    Have you got anything documented to show you cannot cope with any minor change?
    Originally posted by epitome
    How would I document this?

    On a daily basis? and is it documented?
    Originally posted by epitome
    Yes on a daily basis, I have never been arrested for it, but you don't usually for minor shouting. I have patches where i feel so unaware of what is going on around me I fail to move, on an escalator for example.
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    A fit/sick note will not help you because you're already in a group.

    Your next step will be to ask for a mandatory Reconsideration. You have 1 month from the date of the decision to ask for this. I would advice you to put your request in writing stating the reasons why you disagree with the decision and also pointing out the descriptors above that you think should get you into the Support Group again.

    Please bear in mind that 80% of MR decisions remain the same so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal. Appearing in person at your Tribunal will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour. 65% of those who appear in person have a decision in their favour. Good luck.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    This is very upsetting to hear. I was in the support group before for 2 years with much lesser symptoms.

    I have arranged a local citizens advice beuro meeting and we are going to write the letter together. I have very little evidence when I went to atos and I have requested a form from the Brighton and hove well being service stating that I was being treated for dissociative symptoms and insomnia, which wasn't given to atos. I also have doctors backing me with letters and notes from the system which they also didn't have. Since i was in the support group previously and now my symptoms are much greater, do you think I have more than an 80% chance.

    What is a tribunal and shall I try and seek a support worker to come with me if it gets to that stage? What else can I do to help my cause?
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:48 PM
    Maybe you got no points and were put into WRAG on risk (reg 29)

    You need Reg 35 risk for Support Group
    Originally posted by epitome
    What does this entail? What information do you have of this. I saw reg 35 form someone posted here from but my surgery say they only give sick notes.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 30th Nov 17, 10:17 PM
    • 3,018 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    epitome
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:17 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:17 PM
    Essentially Reg 29 (what you got) is
    having to look for work (eg JSA) would make your health worsen.
    But you can do WRAG work related activity on ESA.

    Reg 35 is
    Having to do work related activity on ESA would make your health worsen. (or would put others at risk)
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 30th Nov 17, 11:35 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    • #9
    • 30th Nov 17, 11:35 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Nov 17, 11:35 PM
    Essentially Reg 29 (what you got) is
    having to look for work (eg JSA) would make your health worsen.
    But you can do WRAG work related activity on ESA.

    Reg 35 is
    Having to do work related activity on ESA would make your health worsen. (or would put others at risk)
    Originally posted by epitome
    This is !!!!ing insane frankly. I was a trembling mess as the Atos interview and suicide is far closer to me than anything else. There is no way that i can attend work related activities in the condition that I am in. It really makes me sick to know that they think that is the stage i am at is anywhere near work. I have had the flu for about 3 years, insomnia so bad I could barely walk straight and derealization that is on par with severe. psychosis.

    I need to be within reg 35, i'm not trying to be rude, but there are people I know who receive support group allowance who have not even come close to the suffering i have endured.

    How would I go about making sure I am put in the Reg 35 group,is it just based on those descriptors or could I get a Gp to sign a form?
    • Ames
    • By Ames 30th Nov 17, 11:54 PM
    • 16,575 Posts
    • 29,000 Thanks
    Ames
    This is !!!!ing insane frankly. I was a trembling mess as the Atos interview and suicide is far closer to me than anything else. There is no way that i can attend work related activities in the condition that I am in. It really makes me sick to know that they think that is the stage i am at is anywhere near work. I have had the flu for about 3 years, insomnia so bad I could barely walk straight and derealization that is on par with severe. psychosis.

    I need to be within reg 35, i'm not trying to be rude, but there are people I know who receive support group allowance who have not even come close to the suffering i have endured.

    How would I go about making sure I am put in the Reg 35 group,is it just based on those descriptors or could I get a Gp to sign a form?
    Originally posted by Benjamin N
    It has to be done within the framework of ESA. There's no form for your GP to sign but a letter from them explaining your problems and how they affect you such as to make it suitable for you to be awarded Support Group ESA under reg 35 would help.

    The first step is to ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration of the decision to move you out of the support group. You have four weeks to do this, ideally by writing to them. In the letter you need to refer to the ESA descriptors as to why you think you should be in the support group. Don't expect this to be successful, most MRs just agree with the original decision.

    At this time of year you need to be especially careful around the dates because of bank holidays.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.

    Reading the alphabet in 2017. 21/100
    ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
    • Energize
    • By Energize 1st Dec 17, 12:14 AM
    • 374 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    Energize
    What do you mean when you say your doctors won't write a letter? Your GP or Consultant should be willing to write a detailed medical report for a small fee.
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 1st Dec 17, 8:06 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    Would using this form help me.

    I am going to write to my doctor and see if she can help full this out. I am also having a meeting with my local citizens advice.

    ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1L7xojWHTknlmtLlDl_GupAwnMkPhLrdefRHoA1h2rNk/mobilebasic

    Surely if my doctor signs this and says I am at risk of worsening my mental health if I have to do work related activities then I will be ok. I don't mean to sound funny but I have suffered FAR more and my problems are quite serious compared to some people I know in the support group. It's becauseni recently moved to a new city and have only being seeing a couple of doctors here (two of which HUGLEY unexaggerates my symptoms even when I told then that I was end the line physically and mentally).

    I found a doctor who has empathy and she's understands how I'm suffering. She will help me, but unfortunately I can't see her physically until after the due date for the mandatory consideration .
    • Ames
    • By Ames 1st Dec 17, 8:27 PM
    • 16,575 Posts
    • 29,000 Thanks
    Ames
    I think you need to be patient and see what CAB say. They're the experts and will know what waiting times etc are like in your area.

    Not missing the MR date is vital, even if you don't have new evidence for them. You can write the letter and ask them to wait until you send more evidence, but given how few decisions are changed at MR it might be a waste of time.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.

    Reading the alphabet in 2017. 21/100
    ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 2nd Dec 17, 1:04 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    I think that my decision might have a better chance of being changed considering how little evidence I had to begin with due to moving to a new area this year.

    Obviously people to get changed in some cases and I have a feeling that mine I so severe that they wouldn't bother going to tribunal?
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 2nd Dec 17, 1:11 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    Do you not think the form I suggested would help, what other evidence could I gather?
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 2nd Dec 17, 7:16 AM
    • 1,752 Posts
    • 1,584 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Do you not think the form I suggested would help, what other evidence could I gather?
    Originally posted by Benjamin N
    The "form" you suggested isn't a form, at least it doesn't come up as that when copied and pasted.

    What you need is evidence to prove reg35 applies to you. A letter from you GP or Social Worker. No form will help you with Reg35.

    I know you're angry but comparing others to yourself really isn't the way to go. No one knows what goes on inside and behind those 4 walls. A person can look 100% but on the inside they're falling apart. Not all disabilites are visible.

    What you need to concentrate on is that deadline for the MR and gather as much extra evidence as possible. Also keep in mind that only 20% of MR's are successful, so you will most likely have to take it to Tribunal. If this does happen then you're best chance of success is to appear in person. All of this is going to take time. Hopefully for you, the decision will change at MR but prepare for it not to be. Good luck!
    • biggysmaller
    • By biggysmaller 2nd Dec 17, 8:22 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    biggysmaller
    Just to help I downloaded a template for my GP to fill in and sign. It has all the relevant questions that they need to answer.
    Here is the link - It's very useful - the template for your Gp is at the bottom of the PDF.

    https://www.rethink.org/resources/w/work-capability-assessment-factsheet
    Last edited by biggysmaller; 02-12-2017 at 8:39 PM.
    • Benjamin N
    • By Benjamin N 3rd Dec 17, 4:34 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Benjamin N
    Thanks for the advice, the form I linked needs to have an h added to the beginning as the forum doesn't let me post url's for some reason.

    Thanks biggersmalls for the gp link, much appreciated.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 5th Dec 17, 10:26 PM
    • 3,018 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    epitome
    Mandatory Reconsiderations can be late, and will be accepted if late just explain why it is late. It's really not a big deal if they are late.
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