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  • FIRST POST
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 30th Nov 17, 12:53 PM
    • 120Posts
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    andydownes123
    Employer wants training but won't pay
    • #1
    • 30th Nov 17, 12:53 PM
    Employer wants training but won't pay 30th Nov 17 at 12:53 PM
    Quick question...if an employer requires an employee to do training (for example, as part of the appraisal process), however the qualification is expensive and the employer won't pay towards it, is there any way an employer can force this to happen?

    I am guessing a swift change of contract could make this qualification mandatory and therefore an employee is then in breach of the contract?
Page 1
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 30th Nov 17, 1:00 PM
    • 18,777 Posts
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    agrinnall
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:00 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:00 PM
    If the employer requires training to be done then yes, they should pay for it. But it's not clear that's what's happening here, it sounds more like there will be a requirement that employees have the appropriate training, in which case the employer can pay for it, the employee can pay for it to keep their job, or the employer can make the employee redundant (or sack them if they've worked there less than 2 years) and hire somebody else who is qualified.
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 30th Nov 17, 1:19 PM
    • 120 Posts
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    andydownes123
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:19 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:19 PM
    If the employer requires training to be done then yes, they should pay for it. But it's not clear that's what's happening here, it sounds more like there will be a requirement that employees have the appropriate training, in which case the employer can pay for it, the employee can pay for it to keep their job, or the employer can make the employee redundant (or sack them if they've worked there less than 2 years) and hire somebody else who is qualified.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    To be clear, it's a case of it's not required, just desired at the moment. I have a contract that doesn't make it mandatory, at the moment. It's desired, but they won't pay for it essentially.

    Pressure is put on to do it, many others in employment are putting their hands in their pockets (which makes it worse), but I don't want to.

    My question is, can they make me do it by putting it in my appraisal or worse still changing my contract?
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 30th Nov 17, 6:33 PM
    • 4,275 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 6:33 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 6:33 PM
    As you say, your situation isn't being helped by other employees paying for the training themselves. They can't force you to pay for the training, but as you have less than 2 years with them, they can simply terminate your contract.
    Personally, I'd be looking to get out.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 30th Nov 17, 7:05 PM
    • 18,835 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 7:05 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 7:05 PM
    I dunno, I reckon if I thought it would be useful to my career I'd at least be researching https://www.gov.uk/career-development-loans and similar sites (if there are any).

    If, on the other hand, it's just a whim of the employer, then I agree, I'd be looking for another job.

    PS If it's something like PRINCE2, be aware that
    - colleges will spam you like mad once you enquire and provide am email address (you might want to set up a special account)
    - you can negotiate like mad with them
    - make sure the fee includes the exam(!) and any textbooks you might need.

    HTH - JM
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 30th Nov 17, 9:15 PM
    • 3,133 Posts
    • 7,318 Thanks
    gettingtheresometime
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:15 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:15 PM
    Also consider that if the employer pays they could add a ‘payback clause’ to your contract
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • Sarastro
    • By Sarastro 30th Nov 17, 9:22 PM
    • 367 Posts
    • 282 Thanks
    Sarastro
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:22 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 9:22 PM
    Quick question...if an employer requires an employee to do training (for example, as part of the appraisal process), however the qualification is expensive and the employer won't pay towards it, is there any way an employer can force this to happen?

    I am guessing a swift change of contract could make this qualification mandatory and therefore an employee is then in breach of the contract?
    Originally posted by andydownes123
    If they want you to do the training, they have to pay for it, or you have to agree to pay for it - they can't make you.

    And they can't change your contract without your agreement - it's a contract. They can make it mandatory for new employees, but not existing ones. Ergo, if they change the contract without your consent, you wouldn't be able to do your job and would probably have grounds for constructive dismissal.

    They're trying it on to see if they can get employees to pay for it themselves. Smile sweetly, say how much you like working there but you can't afford the course and sit tight.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 30th Nov 17, 10:03 PM
    • 18,835 Posts
    • 19,146 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:03 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 10:03 PM
    If they want you to do the training, they have to pay for it, or you have to agree to pay for it - they can't make you.

    And they can't change your contract without your agreement - it's a contract. They can make it mandatory for new employees, but not existing ones. Ergo, if they change the contract without your consent, you wouldn't be able to do your job and would probably have grounds for constructive dismissal.

    They're trying it on to see if they can get employees to pay for it themselves. Smile sweetly, say how much you like working there but you can't afford the course and sit tight.
    Originally posted by Sarastro
    And if you've been there less than 2 years, bearing in mind they can dismiss on a whim for any non-discriminatory reason?
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 1st Dec 17, 2:02 PM
    • 120 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    andydownes123
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 2:02 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 2:02 PM
    As you say, your situation isn't being helped by other employees paying for the training themselves. They can't force you to pay for the training, but as you have less than 2 years with them, they can simply terminate your contract.
    Personally, I'd be looking to get out.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    I have more than two years with them
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 1st Dec 17, 2:58 PM
    • 1,864 Posts
    • 3,882 Thanks
    IAmWales
    If they want you to do the training, they have to pay for it, or you have to agree to pay for it - they can't make you.

    And they can't change your contract without your agreement - it's a contract. They can make it mandatory for new employees, but not existing ones. Ergo, if they change the contract without your consent, you wouldn't be able to do your job and would probably have grounds for constructive dismissal.

    They're trying it on to see if they can get employees to pay for it themselves. Smile sweetly, say how much you like working there but you can't afford the course and sit tight.
    Originally posted by Sarastro
    Whilst they cannot unilaterally change the contract, they can adjust the appraisal criteria so as to manage out non agreeable workers who suddenly fail to meet their targets.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 1st Dec 17, 3:03 PM
    • 540 Posts
    • 481 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    It depends a bit on what you agreed.

    However, out of principle, I would get shot of a company that required me to do training out of my own pocket. Any decent company would see you as an investment, otherwise they are just milking you.
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 1st Dec 17, 3:15 PM
    • 14,180 Posts
    • 76,289 Thanks
    GDB2222
    I have more than two years with them
    Originally posted by andydownes123
    I see no problem with the employer changing their job criteria, so your existing post becomes redundant. They pay you off, which will cost a few weeks pay, and then they have to go through the process of hiring someone to fill the new post. That may cost them more than your redundancy pay.

    In practice, if you are good at your job and the training is not too expensive, wouldn't both parties be better off reaching some compromise on this?
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 4th Dec 17, 8:37 AM
    • 120 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    andydownes123
    The training is a level 7 qualification and costs thousands
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 4th Dec 17, 10:30 AM
    • 14,180 Posts
    • 76,289 Thanks
    GDB2222
    The training is a level 7 qualification and costs thousands
    Originally posted by andydownes123
    What have you decided to do?
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 4th Dec 17, 11:53 AM
    • 120 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    andydownes123
    What have you decided to do?
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    Qualification wise - doesn't really matter, as long as it's an MA or MSc
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 4th Dec 17, 11:55 AM
    • 4,731 Posts
    • 7,519 Thanks
    Gavin83
    Most companies (certainly professional anyway) require their employees to have qualifications and/or certifications paid for out of their own pocket. What is slightly unusual in this case is that you are already employed by them and they're asking you to do it. How long have you worked there?

    I think my answer would depend on how much I liked the job. If you refused you are probably on borrowed time. However given that they want you to do it and it seems like it would be good for your career I'd look to negotiate. Ideally you'd split the cost with them but even some sort of day release would be a perk. Depends on what is important to you.
    • andydownes123
    • By andydownes123 4th Dec 17, 2:38 PM
    • 120 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    andydownes123
    Most companies (certainly professional anyway) require their employees to have qualifications and/or certifications paid for out of their own pocket. What is slightly unusual in this case is that you are already employed by them and they're asking you to do it. How long have you worked there?

    I think my answer would depend on how much I liked the job. If you refused you are probably on borrowed time. However given that they want you to do it and it seems like it would be good for your career I'd look to negotiate. Ideally you'd split the cost with them but even some sort of day release would be a perk. Depends on what is important to you.
    Originally posted by Gavin83
    Over a decade working for them. It wasn't a requirement of the job and it isn't in my job description. They like you to do it and don't really understand you not doing. It's just in the past, they would be pay, which is obviously better. Now, they still desire it, but can't afford to pay so want the employees to pay for it. Problem is as I've said before, most are willing to pay, which makes it awkward for those that don't want to pay.

    It also comes down to the fact that many who do it have huge student loans anyway that mean it's just more on top and has little or no impact. For me, I've paid mine off and don't really want to start paying £150 a month for the next tens years again. Basically, I can't afford it either.
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