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    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 29th Nov 17, 8:16 PM
    • 14,260Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    50th time lucky - voluntary euthanasia
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:16 PM
    50th time lucky - voluntary euthanasia 29th Nov 17 at 8:16 PM


    News just come through of another step up the ladder elsewhere in the world.

    https://www.dignityindying.org.uk/latest/

    This seemed like the most appropriate Board to share it on - as many of us start to take more of a personal interest in how things are in this respect once we reach this agegroup.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
Page 1
    • robin58
    • By robin58 29th Nov 17, 9:43 PM
    • 2,020 Posts
    • 2,112 Thanks
    robin58
    • #2
    • 29th Nov 17, 9:43 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Nov 17, 9:43 PM
    Well I'm in this age group but plan to be around for some time thank you.
    The more I live, the more I learn.
    The more I learn, the more I grow.
    The more I grow, the more I see.
    The more I see, the more I know.
    The more I know, the more I see,
    How little I know.!!
    • Ilona
    • By Ilona 30th Nov 17, 1:18 PM
    • 1,962 Posts
    • 6,696 Thanks
    Ilona
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:18 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:18 PM
    Well I'm in this age group but plan to be around for some time thank you.
    Originally posted by robin58
    Me too. 68 and planning another 30 years

    Ilona
    I love skip diving
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 30th Nov 17, 1:21 PM
    • 28,656 Posts
    • 72,979 Thanks
    Mojisola
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:21 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:21 PM
    Well I'm in this age group but plan to be around for some time thank you.
    Originally posted by robin58
    Me too - but when the time comes, I want to be able to go when I'm ready and not be forced to stay alive.
    • SamsReturn
    • By SamsReturn 30th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 3,044 Thanks
    SamsReturn
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Nov 17, 1:31 PM
    Australia is a long way to go, just to die.
    • Farway
    • By Farway 30th Nov 17, 3:39 PM
    • 5,748 Posts
    • 7,802 Thanks
    Farway
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 3:39 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Nov 17, 3:39 PM
    Australia is a long way to go, just to die.
    Originally posted by SamsReturn
    I think it can be supplied a bit nearer, Belgium maybe?

    Not for me though, I'll give it a miss thanks, but I have already clocked up my 3 score & ten
    • Oakdene
    • By Oakdene 30th Nov 17, 3:44 PM
    • 1,393 Posts
    • 4,182 Thanks
    Oakdene
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 3:44 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Nov 17, 3:44 PM
    I'm really sorry but I have to share this....

    I saw the word lucky & assumed this was a competition win!!
    Hiraeth
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 30th Nov 17, 4:51 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
    • 1,138 Thanks
    badmemory
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 4:51 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Nov 17, 4:51 PM
    I have already reached my three score years & 10 and plan on reaching my four score years & 10 too. But one thing I know for certain is that I never want my future to include someone having to wipe my backside every day. I don't mind if I am sick for a week but for the rest of my life - I think not.

    What worries me about this is how much it may suit someones convenience to persuade another person to go ahead, when it may not really be what THEY want. Some people wouldn't mind that dependancy, but that very dependancy may lead them to "complying" when this is suggested. That I am not comfortable with.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 1st Dec 17, 6:56 AM
    • 14,260 Posts
    • 38,635 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 6:56 AM
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 17, 6:56 AM
    Australia is a long way to go, just to die.
    Originally posted by SamsReturn
    Shoulda said - my point being allowing us our rights in this respect is slowly starting to spread across the globe. The more that we can see other places accepting that - then the closer it comes to Britain accepting that.

    I've always held this view for myself.

    These days I'm regularly getting my elderly ill mother telling me that she and my elderly ill father "wishes the NHS would let us just go....we've had enough" and I no longer say "Why don't you try this treatment? Why don't you try that treatment?" as they just don't want any more and I don't want them feeling like I'm pressurising them to stay against their will. I just keep saying "Whatever way you want things - then I'll go along with it".

    Someone was only telling me yesterday they've just been able to release their pet dog from suffering - and complaining they still don't have that right for themselves if they choose it.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 01-12-2017 at 7:09 AM.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 1st Dec 17, 7:06 AM
    • 14,260 Posts
    • 38,635 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention

    What worries me about this is how much it may suit someones convenience to persuade another person to go ahead, when it may not really be what THEY want. Some people wouldn't mind that dependancy, but that very dependancy may lead them to "complying" when this is suggested. That I am not comfortable with.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    I don't think there is any "failsafe" - whichever way we go. Whether it be the current way of not accepting people have the right to say "enough is enough" or the future way of saying "Your choice - if/when you decide".

    I know there are casualties the current way of Society not allowing this yet - and it seems there is a very high number of casualties looking at it this way.

    I fear there might be a few casualties once we have this right.

    I can't think of any appropriate precautions that can be taken to prevent emotional pressure by the unscrupulous (possibly the NHS trying to save itself money) or the greedy (someone that knows there is a Will they might benefit from). Obviously there must be whatever precautions we can think of inbuilt into giving us this right (when we finally have it) and there will still, doubtless, be a few casualties with the best will in the world.

    But I would estimate there will be a lot fewer "casualties of the system" the future way than the absolutely loads of "casualties" there are the present way.

    .....and, yes, the NHS is spending a lot of money on people that actually don't want money spent on them at all - as they personally have made the decision to go, but arent being allowed to have it.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • missile
    • By missile 1st Dec 17, 9:21 AM
    • 9,025 Posts
    • 4,398 Thanks
    missile
    If someone really wants to go, it is not difficult and can be painless.
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home
    • joansgirl
    • By joansgirl 1st Dec 17, 10:23 AM
    • 13,021 Posts
    • 49,466 Thanks
    joansgirl
    If someone really wants to go, it is not difficult and can be painless.
    Originally posted by missile
    But some people can't do it for themselves and need help, and that's when the problems start.

    My Mum begged me to help her when she was in the final stages of stomach cancer. She'd been sent home to die and she just...didn't want to fight anymore, she just wanted to slip away.

    If the morphine she was having had been left in the house I would have done it, she was my Mum, I loved her and she was in pain, and I would have taken the consequences whatever they would have been. But short of smothering her with a pillow there was nothing I could do. I personally don't want that to be me in the future.
    Some people only exist as examples of what to avoid...
    .


    Finito
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 1st Dec 17, 10:35 AM
    • 28,656 Posts
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    Mojisola
    If someone really wants to go, it is not difficult and can be painless.
    Originally posted by missile
    Are there any methods available to an ill or elderly mostly-homebound person that are painless? I doubt it.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 1st Dec 17, 4:13 PM
    • 14,260 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    I've worked out a method for myself "if it ever comes to it" (fingers crossed it won't obviously).

    But - the big issue is "Suppose something happens I won't put up with - but I'm too unable to manage to do that? Then what?". I think tht is the fear of many of us....
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • thepurplepixie
    • By thepurplepixie 1st Dec 17, 4:20 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 1,656 Thanks
    thepurplepixie
    I don't think there is any "failsafe" - whichever way we go. Whether it be the current way of not accepting people have the right to say "enough is enough" or the future way of saying "Your choice - if/when you decide".

    I know there are casualties the current way of Society not allowing this yet - and it seems there is a very high number of casualties looking at it this way.

    I fear there might be a few casualties once we have this right.

    I can't think of any appropriate precautions that can be taken to prevent emotional pressure by the unscrupulous (possibly the NHS trying to save itself money) or the greedy (someone that knows there is a Will they might benefit from). Obviously there must be whatever precautions we can think of inbuilt into giving us this right (when we finally have it) and there will still, doubtless, be a few casualties with the best will in the world.

    But I would estimate there will be a lot fewer "casualties of the system" the future way than the absolutely loads of "casualties" there are the present way.

    .....and, yes, the NHS is spending a lot of money on people that actually don't want money spent on them at all - as they personally have made the decision to go, but arent being allowed to have it.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    It is along time since suicide was treated as a crime, changed in the 60s I think. If you want to do it then do but why make a fuss about it?

    I'm planning on getting my telegram from King William.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 1st Dec 17, 4:28 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    The "fuss" (as you call it) is because there are people that are literally unable to do what they have decided on come the time (if it comes to it). Under the present system - if one is literally physically incapable of doing what they've decided = then just how does it happen?

    ...and I personally have no intention whatsoever of being around to receive a 100th birthday telegram from a member of royal family (if there is still such a thing come the time....). If you want to personally - thats your right to do so obviously. Personally = not for me....NO chance....

    This is where I say that my own father came out with a comment one time that made it very clear he had contemplated suicide (courtesy of his numerous health problems) and not been able to figure out how to do so without risk of being left alive and even more ill (courtesy of damage from the attempt to do so). That was a shocker to hear him say that (some years back now) - and really got me thinking hard and googling and finding out there are indeed people who "take things into their own hands" and land up still alive and even more ill as a consequence.

    Our "companion animals" (aka pets) can pass away quickly and peacefully. I've only just had someone I know comment just how quick and peaceful it was "come the time" for their cherished "companion" and say just how envious they were of them - because she hasnt got that right yet.

    That is the big fear of DIY and why the law needs to change.

    My own father is one reason I WILL not stop complaining about the current law until it's put right. If he feels that way (as an agnostic) - then you can imagine how I feel personally (as a "believer" one way or another). I know what will happen next for me (IF it ever comes to it) = quantum leap better than what I currently have. He doesnt know that/he doesnt know what will happen (if anything) and its what he wants despite that.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 01-12-2017 at 4:41 PM.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • thepurplepixie
    • By thepurplepixie 1st Dec 17, 6:16 PM
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    thepurplepixie
    Nobody suggested you stay around to get you telegram, you can check out anytime you like, your choice.

    Personally I wouldn't worry too much about helping a very sick relative if they couldn't do it themselves, if they are very sick and under the care of a doctor I don't think anyone is going to be investigating too much and if they do you just do the distraught and devoted partner/child/sibling and a jury is more than likely going to find you not guilty, that is if the CPS even bother to prosecute. I think that strikes a balance between making it too easy for family to bump off a sick relative because they have ulterior motives and being too gung ho about prosecuting them.

    The guidelines are not to prosecute unless undue influence has been used. Between 2009 and 2017 136 cases of assisted suicide have been recorded, the CPS decided not to proceed with 85 of them and the police withdrew 28. There has been one successful prosecution. Not bad odds. If you read up on some of the cases where the CPS has decided not to proceed it is clear that the person did assist and indeed if you have a look at the CPS website it clearly states that in more than one case there was clear evidence that they had assisted in a suicide but did not prosecute as it was not in the public interest.

    I think the whole dignified death of a pet without suffering is a bit of a myth. I was with my dog when she died and it was horrific and she fought it. She was very ill and I couldn't believe how strongly she fought and two of us couldn't hold her and the sound of her skull hitting the floor as she pulled away from us and then collapsed will haunt me forever.
    Last edited by thepurplepixie; 01-12-2017 at 6:18 PM.
    • Katiehound
    • By Katiehound 1st Dec 17, 9:13 PM
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    Katiehound
    I think the whole dignified death of a pet without suffering is a bit of a myth. I was with my dog when she died and it was horrific and she fought it. She was very ill and I couldn't believe how strongly she fought and two of us couldn't hold her and the sound of her skull hitting the floor as she pulled away from us and then collapsed will haunt me forever.
    Originally posted by thepurplepixie
    Well I have had the opposite experience. Three years ago I had to make the fateful decision- my dog was quite stressed so the vet gave him a sedative and then the anaesthetic. Since he had a heart murmur the drug circulated but slowly and he literally passed away in his sleep- which took an hour! Other dogs have just slipped away in my arms......

    I think it's about time folk who really have a really dreadful life outlook with certain diseases that leave them unable to talk... and finally breathe, or a particularly painful disease should be given the opportunity to end their life when they wish. Who would want to be a human vegetable? We talk about quality of life for our pets ... but not humans it seems.
    Triggers the thought (yes, pun intended) 'They shoot horses don't they?'
    Being polite and pleasant doesn't cost anything!

    If you found my posting helpful please hit the "Thanks" button!
    Thank You
    • lessonlearned
    • By lessonlearned 1st Dec 17, 11:57 PM
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    lessonlearned
    PP. hate to say this but it just sounds like an incompetent vet. There is no need for an animal to suffer the way your poor dog did. They have an array of sedatives and drugs at their disposal.

    Similarly, There is no earthly reason why humans should suffer either.

    Many of you will know about my husbands Ilness so I won’t rehash it I will just skip to his and my Parents deaths.

    I managed to get him and my mother excellent end of life care. They both slipped away peacefully in nursing homes, without pain and surrounded by dedicated carers and their family.

    My father was not so lucky. His death was horrific. He died in hospital on a noisy open ward, no privacy, no dignity and cared for by complete strangers. He had 8 beds in three weeks.

    What we really need is joined up thinking, sufficient hospice provision and enough dedicated medical professionals and carers who are fully trained in end of life care.

    We also need a sensible discussion and a nationwide consensus about “where do we go from here”. As medicine becomes ever more sophisticated and complex we have to ask ourselves one simple question. “At what point do we stop interventions, withdraw treatment and concentrate on palliative care”

    My husband directed his own care, he completed an advance directive and I had a health and welfare POA for him just in case. He determined what treatments were unacceptable to him and when to give in. For example he made it quite clear that he did not want a trachiectomy and a jpeg for feeding, so that once he lost his swallow mechanism that would be the signal for his body to shut down. He also gave clear and firm instructions that he did not want to be hospitalised again.

    My mother was not really compus mentis and she did not complete an advance directive or grant poa. Luckily she had a wonderful, very kind and understanding GP who agreed to allow mum to remain in the nursing home rather than be transferred to a hospital and who wrote up sufficient drugs to keep my mother in an induced coma until she slipped away. The nurses in the home were well trained and monitored her very carefully to ensure she remained comfortable and pain free.

    My father was not so fortunate. I begged my sister to transfer him to the same nursing home and to allow the medics to stop treating him and let him die. She and her husband fought me over this and Insisted he remain in hospital where he was subjected to a further two weeks of painful and invasive treatments, although it was obvious he was dying, in extreme pain and that the treatments were exacerbating his distress.

    I believe it is well beyond time for a change in the law. People should be empowered to make their own decisions and direct their own end of life care.

    It is not enough to say “oh they can commit suicide” No they can’t. It is not that simple.

    Firstly, Most people don’t know how to do it safely and for want of a better word “efficiently”. There are far too many bodged attempts which leave the patient in even worse pain and distress. I can give you examples of suicide attempts gone wrong, but I won’t because they are too graphic and distressing for a public forum.

    Secondly, there are those who are too ill to do it for themselves and who need assistance.

    We are an intelligent species, it is not beyond our capabilities to build sufficient checks and balances into the system to guard against abuse or coercion.

    It’s time governments stopped passing the buck. This Is a nettle that has to be grasped. The sooner the better.
    Last edited by lessonlearned; 02-12-2017 at 12:42 AM.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 2nd Dec 17, 7:53 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    purplepixie - I can see the odds are extremely good that no-one would be prosecuted, in the event, for genuinely helping someone close in those circumstances.

    Normally - with odds that good - I'd go for doing something - but that would be in a very different context. Personally I guess I'd reckon on 75% or more odds of succeeding making it worth doing something.

    BUT - this is very different circumstances indeed to taking a gamble on something involving practical/everyday money issues for instance (eg something involving a job or house). This is to do with a human life and human emotions. One cannot expect the "ordinary person in the street" to do something like this - even for a total stranger (never mind someone close). It sounds, to me, like an extremely upsetting thing to be called on to do and I certainly wouldnt want to and would fully understand anyone else not wanting to either. Most people have feelings about these things and I know my father understands (as he really struggled with having his beloved pet dog put down come the time and couldnt bring himself to be the one that took her into the surgery - and a friend had to take his dog in for him and "supervise" on his behalf).

    Then there would be all the stress of The Law getting involved and being put through all that - and that (albeit very slight) risk of landing up getting prosecuted.

    I very much doubt many of us would want to go through all that - and I certainly wouldnt.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 02-12-2017 at 7:56 AM.
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
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