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    • gavcradd
    • By gavcradd 29th Nov 17, 8:04 PM
    • 91Posts
    • 33Thanks
    gavcradd
    Civil Enforcement PCN on hospital
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:04 PM
    Civil Enforcement PCN on hospital 29th Nov 17 at 8:04 PM
    Hi, I'm fighting a PCN issued through the post to a friend by Civil Enforcement Ltd. Apologies for opening a new thread, but I'd like a bit of advice (please!) to make sure I'm doing the right thing (and I have read all the stickies but still feel confused!)

    I should start by saying that I've won a few cases at POPLA in the past (back in 2014/15) so when my friend got a PCN, I was happy to take it on. However, it seems so much has changed...

    The basic facts in this case are that my friend is alleged to have parked on hospital car park where signs saying "authorised vehicles only" were up (she didn't see them). The alleged incident took place on 22/10/17 and the PCN issue date is stated as 15/11/17 (so 24 days). Is this outside of a 14 day time limit seeing as there was no windscreen ticket?

    Last time, my appeals were all based on "no genuine pre-estimate of loss", yet this seems to have disappeared from the sticky advice. Is this now something to not bother with? the sticky blue text says to appeal to Civil Enforcement with a very short complaint about signs lettering failing the test but this seeme very... short? I've also read on here about CEL not using the correct text for POFA 2012 and therefore the keeper not being liable, is that a point to appeal on?

    The sticky mentioned not giving consent to obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA, but surely this is not worth bothering with seeing as they have already done this?

    I know the ultimate goal here is to get the POPLA code, which I would do with any old complaint, but I'd like to get my head around the "winning points" now and not put my foot in it by saying anything that would work against me.

    Thanks in advance for reading and replying :-)
    Last edited by gavcradd; 29-11-2017 at 8:09 PM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Nov 17, 8:23 PM
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:23 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:23 PM
    The sticky mentioned not giving consent to obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA, but surely this is not worth bothering with seeing as they have already done this?
    Put it in the past tense!

    I know the ultimate goal here is to get the POPLA code, which I would do with any old complaint, but I'd like to get my head around the "winning points" now and not put my foot in it by saying anything that would work against me.
    Your main winning point here is ‘No Keeper Liability’ as their NtK is outside the 14-day deadline.

    Add a final paragraph to the initial appeal from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 (blue text) to the above effect. It may cause CEL to cancel at the first hurdle, but if not, no worries, get your POPLA Code.

    If you want the additional paragraph checking, post a draft here - but note the forum is very busy and we’ve lost a significant contributor.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Nov 17, 8:24 PM
    • 16,865 Posts
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    Redx
    • #3
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:24 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:24 PM
    the blue text template needs to be used "as is", but change that paragraph to Should you have obtained , ie:- past tense

    that is the only alteration that is needed

    if ANPR was used then yes the 14 days applies for POFA2012

    if there was a windscreen ticket, it must have been removed after any photos were taken, known as "ghost ticketing"

    2 years ago , BEAVIS lost at the Supreme Court , so not a gpeol died a death

    CEL do not follow POFA2012, so that is a bonus as long as the drivers details are not divulged or hinted at

    so add 6 characters to that blue text template and use it , nothing more to be added , nothing to be removed

    you can adapt this post I made in post #4 , removing the Also clause #13 grace periods paragraph only

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73242562

    get the popla code
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • gavcradd
    • By gavcradd 29th Nov 17, 8:35 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    gavcradd
    • #4
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:35 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:35 PM
    Thanks - there was definitely no windscreen ticket as the person did not get out of the car. Just a PCN through the post a few weeks later.

    So... the complaint I'm going with is :

    Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and
    obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    I also believe that there is no keeper liability in this case as the PCN issue date of 15/11/2017 is more than 14 days since the incident date of 22/10/2017, as detailed on your PCN.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    In addition, I wish to formally complain that you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Me
    All OK to go? Thanks in advance!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
    • #5
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
    seems ok to me , yes
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • gavcradd
    • By gavcradd 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    gavcradd
    • #6
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
    • #6
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:38 PM
    Redx - what is BPA CoP clause #13?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Nov 17, 8:39 PM
    • 15,864 Posts
    • 24,586 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:39 PM
    • #7
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:39 PM
    I’d make the Keeper Liability paragraph your opener. Otherwise looks good to go.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • 4,717 Posts
    • 3,042 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    Redx - what is BPA CoP clause #13?
    Originally posted by gavcradd
    Stick what is BPA CoP clause #13 into google for your answer.
    .
    • gavcradd
    • By gavcradd 29th Nov 17, 9:05 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    gavcradd
    • #9
    • 29th Nov 17, 9:05 PM
    • #9
    • 29th Nov 17, 9:05 PM
    I’d make the Keeper Liability paragraph your opener. Otherwise looks good to go.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thanks - done this and submitted. Will await the next step...
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Nov 17, 9:06 PM
    • 15,864 Posts
    • 24,586 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Stick what is BPA CoP clause #13 into google for your answer.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    There does seem a general misunderstanding that the forum is the equivalent of an online chat line where regulars can be engaged in an ongoing discussion. And I did warn about the current pressures.

    ...... note the forum is very busy and we’ve lost a significant contributor.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • gavcradd
    • By gavcradd 29th Nov 17, 10:11 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    gavcradd
    There does seem a general misunderstanding that the forum is the equivalent of an online chat line where regulars can be engaged in an ongoing discussion. And I did warn about the current pressures.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Whilst I appreciate the sentiment of your reply Umkomaas, it does come across as a little patronising - it's only natural to ask questions of "experts", especially for something as complicated as this. You are right, I could have googled the info I asked for and in the end, I did do this. The good natured, humerous reply from KeithP got this across very nicely.

    I wouldn't have moaned at all if no one answered me because of the pressures - I get that. And I am EXTREMELY grateful for the advice above from others. I hope that I have recipricated on other boards.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Nov 17, 11:23 PM
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    Redx
    I read it and couldnt be *rs*d to reply as its easily researched through google etc

    plus my name is not Siri, or Alexa , its Redx

    gav , you have to do some of the work yourself as this is a self help forum and people playing the game should be reading the rule book , like the BPA CoP , which is easily downloaded

    plus I highlighted the words in bold so the paragraph was easily found
    Last edited by Redx; 30-11-2017 at 12:22 PM. Reason: spelling
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 30th Nov 17, 8:56 AM
    • 15,864 Posts
    • 24,586 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Whilst I appreciate the sentiment of your reply Umkomaas, it does come across as a little patronising
    In which case, I won’t risk being a little patronising again.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 10:15 AM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,161 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    I'd have given a lmgtfy link

    the problem OP is that posting a question behooves an answer, as it indicates you need help - and that is what the forum is for. But putting a trivial question in frustrates, as this is mostly a SELF help forum - not quite RTFM, but using google is hardly an expert level task!

    Basically, think before positng
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Nov 17, 11:59 AM
    • 4,717 Posts
    • 3,042 Thanks
    KeithP
    I'd have given a lmgtfy link
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    I got a fortnight off (PPR'd) for doing that a couple of years ago.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Nov 17, 12:14 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,161 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Ah so glad I didnt then!
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