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  • FIRST POST
    • oxford_yellow
    • By oxford_yellow 29th Nov 17, 10:58 AM
    • 4Posts
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    oxford_yellow
    Bitcoins/Cryptocurrency
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 17, 10:58 AM
    Bitcoins/Cryptocurrency 29th Nov 17 at 10:58 AM
    whats people's views on Crypto Currency?

    Bitcoin is all over the news with massive gains in recent months, but no main broker seems to touch it.

    is it safe? not from view of price going up/down like stocks and shares but more security/legal? heard many horror stories of coins being stolen (plain text on computers?) when you sell - you have to advertise and wait for a bid, banks cancelling accounts as fraud etc...

    does many people trade in it or have views?
Page 3
    • BananaRepublic
    • By BananaRepublic 1st Dec 17, 10:22 AM
    • 925 Posts
    • 665 Thanks
    BananaRepublic
    This is just the start. A bit over the top to say 'everyone' just because of s milestone/press...there were other milestone and press...and still 0.0000000001% of the population has any crypto
    Originally posted by catoutthebag
    I guess you didn't live through the tech boom then? Everyone was saying buy tech stocks, and explaining how they could not fall as it was the future. Valuations were often stratospheric. Your statement is exactly the same. The truth is that most bitcoin purchases are for investment. In other words, it is not users that are driving up the price. That means that when the investors lose confidence, the price WILL plummet. That is fact rather than opinion. When it plummets is anyone's guess. It may be that the big institutional buyers will take profits at some predefined level. Of course after the drop, it may rise again, but slowly over a decade or more, as the currency becomes more widely adopted.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 1st Dec 17, 10:24 AM
    • 6,997 Posts
    • 12,594 Thanks
    bowlhead99

    I also had a similar problem buying my last car that was being delivered. Notified the bank around a week in advance I wanted to withdraw £9k cash. Turned up on the notified day with all my I.D and they still refused to give me MY money. All very embarrassing when the garage involved were traveling around 3 hours to deliver it and they were on their way.
    Originally posted by markj113
    The company selling the car was willing to travel three hours to sell it to you but weren't willing to accept a same day bank transfer that would give you an electronic trail of where your money had gone via a regulated financial institution? And wanted cash in hand that you had to go and physically get from a bank vault? Sounds dodgy as hell.

    Had to get them to bank transfer instead.
    Oh, they did accept a bank transfer, which for only £9k you could have arranged from the comfort of your own home...

    Why would it have been better to pay them with a bitcoin wallet where the £9k they received may be worth £8k or £10k by the time they had got back to their car ringing workshop?

    Bitcoin - I can send as little or as much as I like to whoever I want anywhere in the world from my secure hardware wallet with no hassle or fuss instantly.
    It just depends on the person receiving it being happy to bear the risk of holding a volatile and speculative asset rather than instead receiving from you something with mainstream value.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 1st Dec 17, 10:36 AM
    • 4,794 Posts
    • 2,917 Thanks
    Aegis
    I guess you didn't live through the tech boom then? Everyone was saying buy tech stocks, and explaining how they could not fall as it was the future. Valuations were often stratospheric. Your statement is exactly the same. The truth is that most bitcoin purchases are for investment. In other words, it is not users that are driving up the price. That means that when the investors lose confidence, the price WILL plummet. That is fact rather than opinion. When it plummets is anyone's guess. It may be that the big institutional buyers will take profits at some predefined level. Of course after the drop, it may rise again, but slowly over a decade or more, as the currency becomes more widely adopted.
    Originally posted by BananaRepublic
    I take a slightly different view on the long-term prospects, in that I don't think there are any. Bitcoin was the first big cryptocurrency, but as a result it is experimental technology that will be surpassed by better options in the future. If a new cryptocurrency has better utility as an actual means of temporarily storing value and spending anywhere in the world (i.e. acts like a real currency) and is adopted by a few major payment players, the likes of bitcoin will then be obsolete. At that point, I expect that it will go the way of all obsolete technology.

    The single biggest problem with bitcoin is that, without an underpin from a government, asset, conglomerate or real currency, cryptocurrencies exactly like bitcoin can be replicated and released almost instantly by almost anyone with a bit of coding expertise, and there's no reason why bitcoin should have any more value than Aegiscoin (as far as I'm aware, fictional) except for the fact that people are currently used to speculating on bitcoin and would need some persuasion to move to my alternative.

    As I keep saying offline, I think the technology is interesting and might well represent a future paradigm shift in how currency works, but people buying Bitcoin aren't buying the technology, but rather the product of that technology. If someone invented a great new process for making spoons (let's call them bit-spoons), Bitcoin investors who act the way they do at present would be out mass-buying bit-spoons rather than investing in the company holding the patents on the design process. It's irrational.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 1st Dec 17, 10:48 AM
    • 850 Posts
    • 1,385 Thanks
    fun4everyone
    Martin Lewis blog on bitcoin


    https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2017/11/30/invest-bitcoin-four-things-need-know/
    Last edited by fun4everyone; 01-12-2017 at 12:48 PM.
    • BananaRepublic
    • By BananaRepublic 1st Dec 17, 1:26 PM
    • 925 Posts
    • 665 Thanks
    BananaRepublic
    I take a slightly different view on the long-term prospects, in that I don't think there are any. Bitcoin was the first big cryptocurrency, but as a result it is experimental technology that will be surpassed by better options in the future. If a new cryptocurrency has better utility as an actual means of temporarily storing value and spending anywhere in the world (i.e. acts like a real currency) and is adopted by a few major payment players, the likes of bitcoin will then be obsolete. At that point, I expect that it will go the way of all obsolete technology.

    The single biggest problem with bitcoin is that, without an underpin from a government, asset, conglomerate or real currency, cryptocurrencies exactly like bitcoin can be replicated and released almost instantly by almost anyone with a bit of coding expertise, and there's no reason why bitcoin should have any more value than Aegiscoin (as far as I'm aware, fictional) except for the fact that people are currently used to speculating on bitcoin and would need some persuasion to move to my alternative.

    As I keep saying offline, I think the technology is interesting and might well represent a future paradigm shift in how currency works, but people buying Bitcoin aren't buying the technology, but rather the product of that technology. If someone invented a great new process for making spoons (let's call them bit-spoons), Bitcoin investors who act the way they do at present would be out mass-buying bit-spoons rather than investing in the company holding the patents on the design process. It's irrational.
    Originally posted by Aegis
    I made no comment on its future worth although I cannot see any reason to use it other than anonymity, which I do not need. But it sounds like you think drug dealers, terrorists, arms dealers and pornographers will cease to exist? I suspect they will place a substantial demand on such currencies, be that Bitcoin, or an alternative.

    However, when you say "cryptocurrencies exactly like bitcoin can be replicated and released almost instantly by almost anyone with a bit of coding expertise, " that is not true, it's not easy to mine Bitcoin, as it requires substantial investment in hardware, although the higher its value, the more lucrative it becomes.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 1st Dec 17, 1:42 PM
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    Aegis
    I made no comment on its future worth although I cannot see any reason to use it other than anonymity, which I do not need. But it sounds like you think drug dealers, terrorists, arms dealers and pornographers will cease to exist? I suspect they will place a substantial demand on such currencies, be that Bitcoin, or an alternative.
    Originally posted by BananaRepublic
    It's the last bit that I believe. Ultimately such people will only continue to use a cryptocurrency that they can readily convert into normal currency. Whilst speculation on Bitcoin is running wild, they're undoubtedly delighted to use it, as they can get paid, wait a bit and sell for even greater profits than they were expecting. If the mainstream stop using Bitcoin, though, so will the criminals, as they need to be able to reintegrate their funds with normal currency.

    However, when you say "cryptocurrencies exactly like bitcoin can be replicated and released almost instantly by almost anyone with a bit of coding expertise, " that is not true, it's not easy to mine Bitcoin, as it requires substantial investment in hardware, although the higher its value, the more lucrative it becomes.
    What I mean by that is that it is now possible to launch a new cryptocurrency with minimal effort, not to release more actual Bitcoin. Apologies if that wasn't as clear as it could have been.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 1st Dec 17, 2:13 PM
    • 2,482 Posts
    • 2,230 Thanks
    JohnRo
    You're in the dragged kicking and screaming camp then, congratulations.

    Crypto is here to stay, much better to start getting used to the fact and learning a little about it rather than falling for and regurgitating ignorant tabloid vitriol.
    'We don't need to be smarter than the rest; we need to be more disciplined than the rest.' - WB
    • frenchplonka
    • By frenchplonka 1st Dec 17, 6:26 PM
    • 267 Posts
    • 64 Thanks
    frenchplonka
    Personally I think its going to be crash rise crash bigger rise crash rise pretty much how its been since its inception I'm late to the party and its purely a punt on my part the question is are u silly enough to come for a ride up the wrong side of the dual carriage way!

    I'm in the car and steadily moving forward will I lose I don't know am I putting in a lot of money no around 50 a week gamble what you can afford to lose any profits a bonus
    Sealed Pot Challenge 10 - #571
    • dividendhero
    • By dividendhero 2nd Dec 17, 9:11 AM
    • 117 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    dividendhero
    Let's say you decide to pay for legitimate goods using Bitcoins, a car at 2 bitcoins for example. Clearly vendor will want to see money first, you transfer him the 2 bitcoins. He claims he never got them - AFAIK you've no comeback (not unless you hire a hitman, using real cash so you don't get scammed twice)
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 2nd Dec 17, 9:40 AM
    • 850 Posts
    • 1,385 Thanks
    fun4everyone
    It's staggering the level of ignorance displayed. I would suggest reading and learning but haters gonna hate. Of course anyone not part of a massive bull market just wants to see it burst. People do not want to be made a fool out of, and bitcoin has made a fool out of many.

    Consider this, bitcoin has been a staggeringly good investment. It doesn't matter what anyone says now - it absolutely has been. You could have made 500% even after it hit mainstream news and haters started screaming bubble. So anyone that claimed it was going to fail/spouted a load of scaremongering about it has been completely wrong.

    Going forward who knows what is going to happen. Bitcoin might indeed crash and not recover previous highs, but not because its in a bubble. Crypto's are here to stay.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 2nd Dec 17, 10:01 AM
    • 4,794 Posts
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    Aegis
    It's done well for people who bought in relatively early (and it may still be relatively early, who knows) but that doesn't make it a good investment any more than when early adopters of Ponzi schemes make good money or lucky people won the lottery. A good investment is one where an expected increase in value comes from a fundamental reason. There's no such thing in bitcoin; it is irrational exuberance driving the price, exacerbated by existing holders doing everything they can to ramp up the price.

    As a corollary I bought an AIM share earlier this year at an average of about 16p, and it's now worth 60p a share. The reason for this is that they have some solid intellectual property for manufacturing processes for materials which they are now building up to sell to some major international players. The price increase has been amazing, and may be somewhat driven by exuberance in the short term, but there's still a solid fundamental reason to expect the price of the company as a whole to go up even further if their proposed deals come to fruition. That's investing. Bitcoin is speculation at best.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 2nd Dec 17, 10:04 AM
    • 850 Posts
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    fun4everyone
    A good investment is one where an expected increase in value comes from a fundamental reason. There's no such thing in bitcoin
    Originally posted by Aegis
    Honestly, it really is incredible the lack of understanding. You will realise what is happening eventually.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 2nd Dec 17, 10:15 AM
    • 4,794 Posts
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    Aegis
    Honestly, it really is incredible the lack of understanding. You will realise what is happening eventually.
    Originally posted by fun4everyone
    So far not a single person has been able to explain what fundamental reason there is for the increase in bitcoin price. Perhaps, rather than insulting opposing views, you might actual try to be the first?
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 2nd Dec 17, 10:39 AM
    • 850 Posts
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    fun4everyone
    So far not a single person has been able to explain what fundamental reason there is for the increase in bitcoin price. Perhaps, rather than insulting opposing views, you might actual try to be the first?
    Originally posted by Aegis
    I am not wishing to insult anyone. The point about lack of understanding on bitcoin is valid to anyone glancing at some of the posts about it on these forums. Bitcoin and everything that goes with it is here to stay, it is more than just "money", there are multiple advantages. It is kind of like the internet all over again which is why I understand comparisons to the dot com boom (I am old enough to remember that stinker of a crash).

    It is possible that bitcoin one day does go to to nothing but you can say that about any currency. There is a reason bitcoin was launched straight after the gfc. Banks are constantly being bailed out (Deutsch bank rumours last year). There are many problems with the monetary system and the potential of crypto in this area is one of the reasons for the surge. I am not saying bitcoin as we know it today solves all these problems but it is like what the internet did for information.

    This video is a pretty good starting point for learning for anyone who does want to understand and not just dismiss it with 0 thought.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1si5ZWLgy0&app=desktop
    • markj113
    • By markj113 2nd Dec 17, 11:00 AM
    • 125 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    markj113
    Let's say you decide to pay for legitimate goods using Bitcoins, a car at 2 bitcoins for example. Clearly vendor will want to see money first, you transfer him the 2 bitcoins. He claims he never got them - AFAIK you've no comeback (not unless you hire a hitman, using real cash so you don't get scammed twice)
    Originally posted by dividendhero

    Would you not have the vendors bitcoin payment address in writing?

    You can then prove payment was sent by checking that address using any of the multiple blockchain explorers available.

    p.s. cars are already sold for bitcoin.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 2nd Dec 17, 11:48 AM
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    Aegis
    I am not wishing to insult anyone.
    Originally posted by fun4everyone
    If this is the case, then I suggest one of two strategies when replying to opposing posts:
    1. provide an actual answer to points raised, using sources if appropriate
    2. avoid commenting that someone flat out doesn't understand an issue when you have made no effort to show how that is the case

    If you simply comment that someone has a complete lack of understanding, all you are doing is insulting, whether that is your intention or not.


    The point about lack of understanding on bitcoin is valid to anyone glancing at some of the posts about it on these forums.
    Not true. I've been following bitcoin for done tone and I don't believe it's an investment, but rather a demonstration of a new technology that has gotten completely out of hand.

    Bitcoin and everything that goes with it is here to stay, it is more than just "money", there are multiple advantages.
    I don't for a second doubt that the technology demonstrated in bitcoin will continue to be used and may change how money works, but that doesn't mean that bitcoin is a good investment. If anything, given the issue with scale that bitcoin has, it is a strong indicator that a successor technology will become much more mainstream, probably with better control over the value of each unit to stop wild speculation from getting enormous volatility in the price.

    I do see a lot of people arguing that bitcoin is a great investment because the technology is revolutionary, but that assume that buying the coins is investing in the intellectual property of the block chain, which simply isn't true.

    As such, people are "investing" in a product of new technology, not in the technology itself.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 2nd Dec 17, 11:57 AM
    • 850 Posts
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    fun4everyone
    If this is the case, then I suggest one of two strategies when replying to opposing posts:
    [*]provide an actual answer to points raised, using sources if appropriate

    Originally posted by Aegis
    Which is what I have done, you put words in my mouth claiming I was insulting.
    What you found insulting is your lack of knowledge is being exposed. All your posts on bitcoin just say "it has no value". No reasoning and no thought or understanding.

    Enjoy the crypto revolution, it is happening.
    • IanSt
    • By IanSt 2nd Dec 17, 11:57 AM
    • 149 Posts
    • 104 Thanks
    IanSt
    Bitcoin and everything that goes with it is here to stay...
    Originally posted by fun4everyone
    Just like crime, drugs and rock n' roll

    It is possible that bitcoin one day does go to to nothing but you can say that about any currency.
    Originally posted by fun4everyone
    I'd say that the chances of bitcoin and the other crypto currencies going to nothing (or close to nothing) is a lot higher than the chances of any of the main currencies going to nothing. Yes there are currencies ravaged by inflation, but that is a known risk and country specific rather than being a greater-fool issue.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 2nd Dec 17, 12:06 PM
    • 4,794 Posts
    • 2,917 Thanks
    Aegis
    Which is what I have done, you put words in my mouth claiming I was insulting.
    What you found insulting is your lack of knowledge is being exposed. All your posts on bitcoin just say "it has no value". No reasoning and no thought or understanding.

    Enjoy the crypto revolution, it is happening.
    Originally posted by fun4everyone
    Oh, do stop trolling.

    It is clear that noone "investing"in bitcoin can give a rational explanation why it should continue to go up in value other than "because it's going up in value". All other attempted explanations focus entirely on the wrong facts.
    Last edited by Aegis; 02-12-2017 at 12:09 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • fun4everyone
    • By fun4everyone 2nd Dec 17, 12:11 PM
    • 850 Posts
    • 1,385 Thanks
    fun4everyone
    It is clear that noone "investing"in bitcoin can give a rational explanation why it should continue to go up in value other than "because it's going up in value". All other attempted explanations focus entirely on the wrong facts.
    Originally posted by Aegis
    I gave you the explanation, along with a very good video on the subject. If you can't see whats happening or you disagree that any of that has value then that is fine. Bitcoin has proved you and many others completely wrong so far.
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