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    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 5:58 PM
    • 80Posts
    • 15Thanks
    iwblue
    Wrong size double glazed window units
    • #1
    • 27th Nov 17, 5:58 PM
    Wrong size double glazed window units 27th Nov 17 at 5:58 PM
    Hi, I'm just looking for some information about measuring up double glazed units. I have hardwood framed windows with old glass units that had failed. I got a reputable local firm to replace the window units with upgraded doubled glazed glass units. I have not had the frames changed they're still hardwood. However, now there fitted, when I look from the inside to outside the black spacer bar separating the panes of glass is clearly visible above the window frame by some 5mm (in most cases). So in effect, I have a wooden frame outline with a black border 5mm all the way around the window frame. The units are made with some black tape that goes around the outside, I assume this is the usual production process. In some cases, this is clearly visible above the frame as well. I did not expect to see this, as in my previous house with UPVC frames all this was below the beading and not visible.
    I don't have a clue about fitting DG, so just want to feel informed with some general information about DG before I approach the firm. This only happened today and I haven't paid the firm yet.

    Many thanks for any experts advice.
Page 1
    • Private Church
    • By Private Church 27th Nov 17, 6:17 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 1,535 Thanks
    Private Church
    • #2
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:17 PM
    • #2
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:17 PM
    You shouldn't be seeing 5mm of the black taped spacer bar. Double glazed units fitted in timber windows should not have tape fitted around the perimeter of the unit because the glazing tape/ silicone used to seal the unit won't seal the glass if its stuck to the black tape all it does is seal the tape.

    On very thin units usually called "slimlite" type you sometimes get alluminium tape around the perimeter for thermal reasons but never black "duct" tape. They do have them on units to be fitted in Upvc window because their glazing system is different to Timber windows.

    When you look through a window where the glass meets the timber we call the "sight line" and it shouldn't have any tape visible. You sometimes see 1-2mm of the alluminium spacer bar usually because they didn't take enough care keeping the spacer bar square when making the units but thats not a great problem because when painted/stained the paint/stain should always be painted onto the glass by 1-2mm to seal the joint.

    Most timber double glazed sashes/windows have a 15mm high rebate but even if they only have a 13mm rebate you shouldn't be seeing any black tape but you may see the alluminium spacer bar around the perimeter. When you measure up for a sealed unit you should measure the height and width of the rebate and then deduct 6mm from the height and width.This means you end up with a 3mm space around the unit to fit plastic packers.

    If you can post some photo's and we can advise better.
    Last edited by Private Church; 27-11-2017 at 6:27 PM.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 27th Nov 17, 6:20 PM
    • 3,631 Posts
    • 2,267 Thanks
    Furts
    • #3
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:20 PM
    • #3
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:20 PM
    I wonder how old the hardwood frames are and what units were in there before. Likewise what rebate depth exists with them. Are the new units thicker?

    You also have to consider how they have been fixed in. Timber glazing beads? If so, are these the originals re-used or new beads?
    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 6:42 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    iwblue
    • #4
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:42 PM
    • #4
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:42 PM
    Hi thanks for your help, I have these
    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 6:45 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    iwblue
    • #5
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:45 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:45 PM
    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 6:46 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    iwblue
    • #6
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:46 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Nov 17, 6:46 PM
    • Private Church
    • By Private Church 27th Nov 17, 8:49 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 1,535 Thanks
    Private Church
    • #7
    • 27th Nov 17, 8:49 PM
    • #7
    • 27th Nov 17, 8:49 PM
    Originally posted by iwblue
    It not right I'm afraid. That black "duct" tape should not be on a sealed unit fitted into a timber frame because the glazing silicone or glazing tape that the glass unit is bedded on will stick to the tape and it shouldn't ,it should stick directly onto the glass to form a water tight seal. Looks to me as though they didn't take into account the rebate depth when they measured up for them. If the black tape wasn't there and you would see 5mm or so of the black spacer bar then again its not right.........

    Sorry to say whoever measured up and fitted them doesn't know how to glaze timber windows.
    • Private Church
    • By Private Church 27th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 1,535 Thanks
    Private Church
    • #8
    • 27th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    • #8
    • 27th Nov 17, 8:54 PM
    Originally posted by iwblue
    If that black spacer bar sticks out past the timber site line by any more than 1-2mm then they measured incorrectly and if they fitted them in the same way as the stained window then they haven't fitted them correctly either.If the rebate wasn't deep enough to take the type of unit they fitted then they should have fitted a "slimlite" type unit which has a narrow site line which wouldn't stick above the timber site line........ Out of interest was the work carried out by a glazing company , Generla builder ?.
    Last edited by Private Church; 27-11-2017 at 9:43 PM.
    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 9:17 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    iwblue
    • #9
    • 27th Nov 17, 9:17 PM
    Double glazed window
    • #9
    • 27th Nov 17, 9:17 PM
    They're a small but reputable glazing company, they belong to one of these local council run schemes where they agree to abide by a set rules when dealing with customers, ie when disputes arsise etc, and are Fensa registered. I'm really disappointed.. Many thanks for your help. I need to contact them tomorrow and set out my reasons for disatisfaction. Sometimes you just don't need the hassle.
    • Private Church
    • By Private Church 27th Nov 17, 9:33 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 1,535 Thanks
    Private Church
    They're a small but reputable glazing company, they belong to one of these local council run schemes where they agree to abide by a set rules when dealing with customers, ie when disputes arsise etc, and are Fensa registered. I'm really disappointed.. Many thanks for your help. I need to contact them tomorrow and set out my reasons for disatisfaction. Sometimes you just don't need the hassle.
    Originally posted by iwblue
    Well unfortunately they have messed up. I would take these Council run schemes,Checkatrade etc with a huge pinch of salt. Its worth getting a second opinion but from your pix I can say with confidence they didn't fit them correctly and I've been making timber windows,doors etc for over 30 years.

    A glazing company should know better and the fact that they are FENSA registered fills me with dread. I don't think involving FENSA will do any good as the frames are existing but if they were new frames you could contact FENSA.
    Last edited by Private Church; 27-11-2017 at 9:40 PM.
    • iwblue
    • By iwblue 27th Nov 17, 9:43 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    iwblue
    Double glazed window
    I think you're right. I'll start by raising my concerns with them. I just wasn't happy with what I was looking at, I suppose I just needed to understand some of the technicalities etc. Certainly hadn't picked on the duct tape and the silicone issue. Thanks for the info, it helps to construct my e-mail to them.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 28th Nov 17, 7:18 AM
    • 3,631 Posts
    • 2,267 Thanks
    Furts
    Your glazing bead detail is also not good. Not one I would be happy with. It should be chunkier and thus would be hiding the edge tape on the sealed unit. I would also be requesting an overhang. There is a potential problem here with rain penetration and life of the sealed units - I had this on similar windows fitted in my home some years back.

    From the stain finish it looks like you have the original beads re-used? If so, whose idea/request was this?
    Last edited by Furts; 28-11-2017 at 7:36 AM.
    • firefox1956
    • By firefox1956 28th Nov 17, 9:42 AM
    • 1,382 Posts
    • 791 Thanks
    firefox1956
    Bodge job springs to mind.............
    As you say you just don't need the hassle of dealing
    with these sort of things.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 28th Nov 17, 10:55 AM
    • 3,631 Posts
    • 2,267 Thanks
    Furts
    Yes it is a bodge job, but matters in life are never simple. The question is why was it bodged? I cannot make out from the photos what has happened but I think the stain finish is on the outside.
    If so, and over to OP here, there should have been dialogue between OP and the glazers to agree a specification and cost. The glazers should have said something like "your current beads are useless bits of quadrant, so what do we do? New beads will require ventilating and draining, and will not match your other beads. Then they will need decorating, but this will not match your existing cills, because stain is impossible to match". OP would have then agreed something.

    All this bumps up the complexity, and price, of what people might think is a quick, simple job.

    I suspect the glazers were clueless on all this, because the finished job is unsatisfactory. However if the stain is on the outside and OP wants the existing beads retained then it is not possible to do a proper job.
    • SatanicHare
    • By SatanicHare 30th Nov 17, 8:05 PM
    • 366 Posts
    • 158 Thanks
    SatanicHare
    Are you sure they're not stepped units.
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