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  • FIRST POST
    • fly53
    • By fly53 27th Nov 17, 2:42 PM
    • 51Posts
    • 1Thanks
    fly53
    tenancy woes :(
    • #1
    • 27th Nov 17, 2:42 PM
    tenancy woes :( 27th Nov 17 at 2:42 PM
    hi guys i posted earlier, to some great advice

    im now having some tenancy woes myself

    i was lead to believe that my tenancy was a 12 month tenancy with 8 month break clause giving two months notice for the clause(?)

    c.a.b agree that my tenancy which started on the 25th august can be served notice on the 25th feb 2018 to vacate in april 2018

    the letting agent is saying otherwise
    theyre saying its 12 month tenancy with two months notice, ie 10 months instead of 8.

    im not happy at this place and wish to vacate in april.

    can anyone shed some much needed light on this clause?

    please see below,

    many thanks to you.

    break clause:

    the landlord shall be entiled to serve upon the tenant statutory notice of not less than two caleneder months pursuant to section 21 of the housing act 1988 to break this tenancy. such notice:
    4.1.1
    may not be served during the first four months and shall not expire before the end of the eight month of the term.

    4.1.2
    shall be given to expire on the last day of a period of the tenancy and be served in writing

    4.1.3
    shell be served in accordance with the attached terms and conditions

    4.2
    the tentant shall be entitled to terminate this tenancy by giving not less than two calander months notice to break this tenancy provided that such notice:
    4.2.1 shall not expire before the eight month of the term
    4.2.2 will expire on the last day of a period of the tenancy and shall be given in writing.
    4.2.3 shall be served in accordance with the attached terms and conditiosn
    4.2.4 this clause replaces or amends any relavent clauses within the attached tenancy terms and conditiosn inpparticular part four clause 1.2
    4.3
    the tenant acknowleges that should notice of termination in accordance with 4.2 be issued it cannot be recinded




    regards
Page 2
    • fly53
    • By fly53 28th Nov 17, 5:09 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Sorry to bump this. But should i seek legal advice before envoking my clause?
    • fly53
    • By fly53 28th Nov 17, 6:21 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Ok so ive read that the conditions of the grant of tenancy is that i have house contents insurance.

    Which ive found i dont have!?!?
    Dont ask how that happened. I was granted the tenancy upn that condition which wasnt fullfilled.

    Does this invalidate my tenancy?

    It that my fault or the agents?

    Just gets better and better.
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 28th Nov 17, 6:39 PM
    • 365 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Slithery
    It doesn't matter one jot.

    It's an unenforceable clause.
    • thelem
    • By thelem 28th Nov 17, 6:50 PM
    • 626 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    thelem
    EA = Estate Agent (or Letting Agent)

    While the written notice is important, I think it's more important that you and the agent agree on when your notice expires. That way you don't end up having to fight them in court or anywhere.

    Ask the agent to explain why they think you cannot move out before 10 months, quoting the relevant terms on the contract.

    I assume that they think you are only able to *serve* your notice after 8 months, but the contract clearly says: "4.2.1 shall not *expire* before the eight month of the term".
    Note: Unless otherwise stated, my property related posts refer to England & Wales. Please make sure you state if you are discussing Scotland or elsewhere as laws differ.
    • fly53
    • By fly53 28th Nov 17, 7:06 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Thanks so much for the help here i really appreciate it.

    If miss quoated the text. It says "shall not expire before the end of the 8th month of the term"

    I assume that same still stands?

    Thankyou
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 28th Nov 17, 8:26 PM
    • 5,577 Posts
    • 4,979 Thanks
    00ec25
    Thanks so much for the help here i really appreciate it.

    If miss quoated the text. It says "shall not expire before the end of the 8th month of the term"

    I assume that same still stands?

    Thankyou
    Originally posted by fly53
    ok that helps a little as it does not specifically state "expire on or before"

    so it appears your notice can expire on or after the end of the 8th month since that is indeed in keeping with the requirement that is does not expire before the end of the 8th month

    so you serve your notice on (but preferably before) Feb 25th so that it gives 2 months notice aligned with the end date of your tenancy as required by your contract, and thus it expires exactly on 24th April (and you must have moved out before midnight on the 24th)

    you will not find a template letter since you simply write on paper giving that date and stating you are invoking the terms of the break clause.
    • fly53
    • By fly53 29th Nov 17, 1:33 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Dear ll

    I will be vacating the premises on the 24th of april 2018 which will end my tenancy.

    this being having served more than two calender months notice to break before the end of the 8th month of the term.



    my forwarding address is x



    kind regards

    me
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 29th Nov 17, 1:43 PM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,068 Thanks
    Comms69
    Dear ll

    I will be vacating the premises on the 24th of april 2018 which will end my tenancy.

    this being having served more than two calender months notice to break before the end of the 8th month of the term.



    my forwarding address is x



    kind regards

    me
    Originally posted by fly53
    Why? Are you expecting him to visit?
    • fly53
    • By fly53 29th Nov 17, 1:51 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Not really. Im just serving my break clause which lasts untill 24th april.

    Though now the agent is saying my possesion started on signing the tenancy ( the 18th aug) not when i moved in. Are thry taking the mick or what?
    • fly53
    • By fly53 29th Nov 17, 2:00 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    . I thought ide have to leave my forwarding address no?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 29th Nov 17, 2:06 PM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,068 Thanks
    Comms69
    . I thought ide have to leave my forwarding address no?
    Originally posted by fly53


    Whats going to happen if you don't?....
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 29th Nov 17, 2:12 PM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,068 Thanks
    Comms69
    Not really. Im just serving my break clause which lasts untill 24th april.

    Though now the agent is saying my possesion started on signing the tenancy ( the 18th aug) not when i moved in. Are thry taking the mick or what?
    Originally posted by fly53
    Tenancy starts on the day you get possession (for arguments sake the keys in your hand)
    • fly53
    • By fly53 29th Nov 17, 2:28 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    Well i signed on the 18th aug and got the keys on that day but my 12 month tenancy states my term is 25th aug 2017 to 24th aug 2018
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 29th Nov 17, 3:09 PM
    • 5,577 Posts
    • 4,979 Thanks
    00ec25
    Well i signed on the 18th aug and got the keys on that day but my 12 month tenancy states my term is 25th aug 2017 to 24th aug 2018
    Originally posted by fly53
    ok , I am not a lawyer but contract law is never as simple as that

    for a contract to exist there must be an exchange of consideration, the date a contract is signed is neither consideration nor an exchange (after all a contract can be verbal). In the context of housing, consideration can comprise:

    a) the LL gives you the keys to the property and you are therefore physically able to move in ("take possession")

    in return

    b) you pay rent to the LL. The amount you pay is tied into the dates that you possess the property since that is how the contract is worded (eg: £x rent per month).

    so in your case you have paid rent presumably based on a start date of 25th Aug. Therefore the contract commenced on 25th Aug when the exchange was completed. You do not have a contract for the period 18th Aug - 24th Aug so that earlier date is irrelevant

    as ever do not expect letting agents to know anything about tenancy law beyond the ability to use the words "fee due"
    Last edited by 00ec25; 29-11-2017 at 3:12 PM.
    • fly53
    • By fly53 30th Nov 17, 8:56 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    well i spoke to them (again) this time to someone else and she's saying also, that it's a 12 month tenancy with an 8 month break clause with two months notice post.

    ermm....... ok

    well im just going to say im leaving on the 24th april. im getting sick of this nonsense already.
    i can't imagine a judge would think much of it either, should it come to that
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 30th Nov 17, 9:54 AM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,068 Thanks
    Comms69
    well i spoke to them (again) this time to someone else and she's saying also, that it's a 12 month tenancy with an 8 month break clause with two months notice post.

    ermm....... ok

    well im just going to say im leaving on the 24th april. im getting sick of this nonsense already.
    i can't imagine a judge would think much of it either, should it come to that
    Originally posted by fly53
    Judges deal with legal arguments - the key point is I doubt they'd go to court over it
    • fly53
    • By fly53 30th Nov 17, 10:34 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    fly53
    yeah im just going to hand in keys before 24th april and im done

    thanks
    • nyermen
    • By nyermen 30th Nov 17, 11:12 AM
    • 135 Posts
    • 108 Thanks
    nyermen
    Judges deal with legal arguments - the key point is I doubt they'd go to court over it
    Excuse my Naivity, but would the concept of "Contra proferentem" (where ambiguity in a contract favours the person who didn't draw it up) help here at all? Just curious.

    Peter.
    Peter

    Debt free - finally finished paying off £20k + Interest.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 30th Nov 17, 11:19 AM
    • 42,330 Posts
    • 49,171 Thanks
    G_M

    for a contract to exist there must be an exchange of consideration, the date a contract is signed is neither consideration nor an exchange (after all a contract can be verbal). In the context of housing, consideration can comprise:

    a) the LL gives you the keys to the property and you are therefore physically able to move in ("take possession")

    in return

    b) you pay rent to the LL. The amount you pay is tied into the dates that you possess the property since that is how the contract is worded (eg: £x rent per month).
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Sorry 00ec25 - not so.

    The contract can be formed before the exchange takes place. The point about 'consideration' is that the contract must involve agreement of an exchange (eg property for rent), but the contract can (does) become binding before those things happen. The contract must contain an agreement that those things will happen.

    When acccess is granted (eg keys) then the tenancy is created. But if that happens on a later date that the date specified in the contract, then there will have been a breach of contract
    • G_M
    • By G_M 30th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • 42,330 Posts
    • 49,171 Thanks
    G_M
    Tenancy starts on the day you get possession (for arguments sake the keys in your hand)
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Not necessarily.

    1) Contract might specify the tenancy will start on Sunday. Landlord/agent not availble on Sunday so gives keys to tenant the preceding Friday for convenience, on the understanding that as per the contract, the tenant will not move in till Sunday.

    2) More ambiguously, the LL might grant the ... er... 'occupier'... a licence to move in on the Friday (either just their belongings and/or themselves), with the tenancy, and obligation to start paying rent, starting on the Sunday as per the contract

    The law is often more complex than at first sight.

    Clearly in the above examples, much depends on the intentions of the two parties.
    Last edited by G_M; 30-11-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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