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    • met6173
    • By met6173 27th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
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    met6173
    Brittania Parking PCN
    • #1
    • 27th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    Brittania Parking PCN 27th Nov 17 at 10:17 AM
    Hi
    My son has received a PCN through the post sent to the registered keeper. It says he failed to pay and display and are charging £100 reduced to £60 for early payment. There are 2 pictures on the letter, neither of which are timed, showing his car entering and exiting the car park. There is no picture of his windscreen which would surely be a better way to identify his failure to display. There is a time for entering/exiting the car park on the letter. My son can only find a void receipt where the machine played up but thinks he remembers it being an issue and trying again. Still waiting for him to check bank transactions to confirm ( he's a teenager!!) Is this worth appealing?
Page 2
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 28th Nov 17, 12:55 PM
    • 4,784 Posts
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    KeithP
    Post #11 still needs changing. As described in post #13.
    .
    • met6173
    • By met6173 28th Nov 17, 6:09 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    met6173
    thanks have edited #9 but unable to change content of #11
    • met6173
    • By met6173 1st Dec 17, 5:47 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    met6173
    Hi all,

    I've been in contact with the college who have forwarded it on to Britannia. In their response they say they have said this:-

    I have looked at this PCN and there has been no delay, we have up to 35 days to notify the keeper, if the PCN is not issued under the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA).

    Time frame if POFA is quoted in the text on the PCN – 14 days

    Time frame if POFA is NOT quoted in the text on the PCN – 35 days


    Unfortunately the POFA Legislation is quite complex and can be very confusing if you do not work with the private car parking industry, to understand the requirements to be able to issue a PCN within the 14 days.

    Any ideas please? Where does it show how it was issued ie POFA or not?

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Dec 17, 6:09 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Unfortunately the POFA Legislation is quite complex and can be very confusing
    It’s obviously confusing Britannia too!

    ....... we have up to 35 days to notify the keeper, if the PCN is not issued under the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA).
    Eh?

    Here’s how you check whether the NtK is PoFA-compliant.

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    Have you sent your appeal to Britannia yet (from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 - blue text version)?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 1st Dec 17, 6:29 PM
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    met6173
    I 've given these a quick look. There was no notice to driver issued at the time, only the NTK that came through the post. All the information appears to be on the letter that is required so why do they say it isnt issued under POFA? Are they just trying to put me off and pay up? Why wouldnt POFA apply?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Dec 17, 6:36 PM
    • 16,937 Posts
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    Redx
    its all rubbish

    if ANPR is used then they had 14 days to serve the notice to the keeper, by post

    the 35 days relates to the timeframe in the BPA CoP that is allowed for a PPC like BRIT to reply to any appeal made

    in my opinion, even after 5 years BRIT have no idea how POFA2012 operates , so I am not surprised they have failed to address any issues

    if we assume they are not following POFA2012, or have failed it , OR BOTH , then they can only pursue the driver (if known)

    a KEEPER can always hide behind POFA2012 if BRIT have failed to adhere to it , its the law and the keeper can use the law to their own advantage if a PPC fails that same law

    this is why we tell people to appeal as KEEPER and not to admit to who was driving on the day

    the "normal" course of events for a POFA2012 compliant NTK is

    issued and posted within say 12 days
    compliant with POFA2012 wordings
    arrives with the keeper by day 15

    if its late , or fails the wording tests , then it is not compliant
    if it doesnt specify the POFA2012 wordings , it is not compliant

    whoever sent you that letter hasnt a clue about POFA2012 and many companies find it too complicated, AND SO DO NOT FOLLOW POFA2012

    they seem to think they can hound a keeper even when they cannot hold a keeper reesponsible for the charge
    Last edited by Redx; 01-12-2017 at 7:35 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Dec 17, 6:39 PM
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    Umkomaas
    I 've given these a quick look.
    ‘Quick look’ is hardly going to do it! The NtK needs to be examined thoroughly and pedantically against each of the requirements it needs to meet in order for the PPC to invoke Keeper Liability.

    Let’s cut to the chase (but I won’t do this again)!

    1. Date of parking contravention?
    2. Date the NtK was issued?
    3. Date of receipt of NtK?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 1st Dec 17, 7:55 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    met6173
    thanks guys

    A NTK was recieved on 27/11/17. The contravention was dated 8/11/17 and the notice was issued on the 23/11/17.

    Included in the letter are the registration of the vehicle, pictures of the vehicle entering and exiting the car park and the time it entered and exited. It invites the keeper to pay up or inform who the driver is.Britannia identify themselves as the 'creditor', and offer to discount the £100 charge to £60 if paid within 14 days of issue and that after 29 days the full amount is due.

    So far as the following parts are worded i'm unclear

    Advise that the driver is liable for the parking charge and the amount and that it has not been paid in full.

    Specify the outstanding amount of the parking charge and of the maximum additional costs they may seek to recover, and of the dispute resolution arrangements

    Warn the keeper that if the parking charges remains outstanding after 28 days and the name and address of the driver has not been given, or otherwise known to the person entitled to the parking charge, that “creditor” will be entitled to recover the parking charge from the registered keeper.

    The letter states

    The signage displayed at the entranceto and through the car park states that the car park is private land operated by Britannia Parking ( the creditor). Parking conditions apply or a Parking Charge will be incurred, along with other terms and conditions of the car park by which those who park agree to be bound.

    By contravening the terms and conditions set out on the signage the Parking Charge is now payable.

    I assume that the above covers this? if so then the NTK is POFA and Britannia are trying to pull a fast one?

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Dec 17, 9:12 PM
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    Umkomaas
    A NTK was recieved on 27/11/17. The contravention was dated 8/11/17 and the notice was issued on the 23/11/17.
    Thereís your get out of jail card. No Keeper Liability.

    With an ANPR camera capture, the PPC must send, and the keeper receive, the NtK within 14 days after the day following the day on which the parking event took place. The NtK needed to be with the keeper by 22/11/17.

    As it is dated 23/11/17 there can be no possibility that the NtK arrived in time, therefore, No Keeper Liability. But that will come later in your POPLA appeal.

    But you first need to get a POPLA Code, so you need to submit your initial appeal (blue text template from post #1 of the sticky) to Britannia by the method prescribed in their NtK and within 28 days of the date on the NtK. Follow their instructions on how to submit precisely, but do not identify the driver. This is my standard advice in terms of submitting the initial appeal.

    Make sure that is sent to the PPC by their deadline date, normally 28 days from the date on the NtK, otherwise you can kiss goodbye to POPLA.

    Also, equally important in the submission of the initial appeal, you follow precisely the method by which they require you to send the appeal. If it says by email, donít send it by post (or vice versa). If it asks for the keeperís name and full postal address - give it, donít provide an email address instead, or try to be clever with a M Mouse, Orlando, Florida!

    Be careful of any drop down box if the appeal is via a website appeals portal, that defaults to ĎI am/was the driverí - make sure that isnít shown when you press the ĎSendí button.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 3rd Dec 17, 9:06 AM
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    met6173
    Thank you all. Appeal issued now to wait for code
    • met6173
    • By met6173 3rd Dec 17, 9:15 AM
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    met6173
    If as I expect Britannia respond to say this wasnt issued under POFA 2012 I still have grounds to appeal due to the time line, yes?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Dec 17, 10:02 AM
    • 15,951 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    If as I expect Britannia respond to say this wasnt issued under POFA 2012 I still have grounds to appeal due to the time line, yes?
    Originally posted by met6173
    If theyíre not pursuing the keeper under PoFA, the timeline argument is redundant.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Dec 17, 10:52 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    If they say no pofa, then the keeper is not liable. Popla then uphold the appeal.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 3rd Dec 17, 12:57 PM
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    met6173
    I'm confused now. Are you saying I now have no grounds to appeal as Britannia saying the NTK wasnt issued ubder POFA? Or that it must have been issued under POFA to pursue the keeper and therefore Britannia has issued the notice too late and the appeal should be upheld in my favour???
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Dec 17, 1:12 PM
    • 4,784 Posts
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    KeithP
    Re-read post #33.

    It really can't be put much simpler.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Dec 17, 1:44 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Not sure how much simpler than: “popla uphold the appeall” you need this

    The only way to hold a keeper liable is pofa. If they state they dont use pofa - then the keeper isn’t liable. If they try to use pofa but don’t meet all the requirements - the Keeper isn’t liable. This isn’t difficult.
    • met6173
    • By met6173 11th Dec 17, 6:17 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    met6173
    Hi, I lodged an appeal with Britannia using the process advised on the letter. I’ve received an automated response but was wondering how long they have to respond to either reject ( and give popla code) or accept? I assume like most things relating to pcn’s there is a specific time frame? Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Dec 17, 6:25 PM
    • 15,951 Posts
    • 24,742 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Hi, I lodged an appeal with Britannia using the process advised on the letter. Iíve received an automated response but was wondering how long they have to respond to either reject ( and give popla code) or accept? I assume like most things relating to pcnís there is a specific time frame? Thanks
    Originally posted by met6173
    14 days to acknowledge receipt (which they have done) and 35 days for a decision.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Dec 17, 7:05 PM
    • 15,951 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    You need to start a new thread of your own, not jump in on someone else’s.

    In your new thread, please provide some clearer details - no need to panic on here, just give us a more rational run-down on where these tickets were issued.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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