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  • FIRST POST
    • FelineFan
    • By FelineFan 24th Nov 17, 3:33 PM
    • 22Posts
    • 3Thanks
    FelineFan
    Advise - Immediate Resignation prior to Disiplinary Investigation
    • #1
    • 24th Nov 17, 3:33 PM
    Advise - Immediate Resignation prior to Disiplinary Investigation 24th Nov 17 at 3:33 PM
    Hi
    Whilst in a highly stressed state, (due to working conditions & treatment), I ranted at my boss (whilst we were in a room alone together) and said something in the heat of the moment, which he then reported and it has been deemed as gross misconduct.
    I was told there was going to be an investigation, which may lead to my dismissal.
    I have only worked for the company for 8 months, but did pass my 6 month probation with flying colours.
    However, I handed in my resignation, prior to the investigation, thinking this would stop any investigation in its tracks. This was not the case.
    However I was given 2 options. 1) Leave via immediate resignation, no investigation would take place and Iíd effectively leave with a clean slate/no black mark OR 2) work my notice, an investigation would still be carried out, during which time, could still lead to my instant dismissal.
    Does the 1st option sound legal? Iím worried Iíve been stitched up, for want of a better description.
    Iím still awaiting a letter from HR to confirm this.
    Thank you
Page 4
    • Energize
    • By Energize 1st Dec 17, 2:15 PM
    • 374 Posts
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    Energize
    Ok, so why should the taxpayer support someone who either:


    Walks out of a job
    OR
    Is sacked for misconduct


    ?


    In both cases the person has deliberately given up an income
    Originally posted by Comms69
    For a multitude of reasons, firstly we are a civilized society where we shouldn't let people starve and go homeless because of one bad incident at work, secondly because that same person has been supporting everyone else by paying taxes, and thirdly because misconduct is whatever the employer decides it is and decides it on a balance of probabilities which means that entirely innocent people fall victim to the sanction system.

    Plus many economists have predicted that a universal benefit with no qualifiers like a negative income tax is actually cheaper than our system of having job centres and restricting benefits with sanctions and employing tens of thousands of people to check up on peoples work searches etc.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 2:36 PM
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    Comms69
    For a multitude of reasons, firstly we are a civilized society where we shouldn't let people starve and go homeless because of one bad incident at work, secondly because that same person has been supporting everyone else by paying taxes, and thirdly because misconduct is whatever the employer decides it is and decides it on a balance of probabilities which means that entirely innocent people fall victim to the sanction system.

    Plus many economists have predicted that a universal benefit with no qualifiers like a negative income tax is actually cheaper than our system of having job centres and restricting benefits with sanctions and employing tens of thousands of people to check up on peoples work searches etc.
    Originally posted by Energize


    What's so good about universal benefits?


    Let's say that hypothetically it's cheaper (it isn't in the medium to long term), why is it such a good thing?
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 1st Dec 17, 3:14 PM
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    Chrysalis
    I completely agree that it shouldn't matter whether or not someone has paid into the system in a developed society, but in the face of an unsympathetic attitude I felt the need to put across the fact that the op has been paying taxes and is not some sponge on society undeserving of support.
    Originally posted by Energize
    It used to be that those with enough paid NI would get favourable treatment on benefits. Including skipping financial checks, meaning a millionaire could claim NI related benefits as there is no check of savings etc. For JSA, NI claimants used to get much less hassle over work related activities, and on ESA NI WRAG claimants dont have to be referred to the work programme. However I think the checks that look at "how" you lost your job I think are the same even if you have paid sufficient NI.

    The OPs situation is a lose-lose situation and I dont know what I would do.

    I once got sacked from a job with claimed "gross misconduct" and i was never told what the misconduct was other than "the manager is not happy with your work". The manager didnt even speak to me about it, I just got pulled up by the agency manager one day and was escorted off the premises. However I do have a theory as to what happened. In my case there was a sort of assistant to the manager, the person wasnt a manager, was on the same pay system as myself (low basic pay but bonus paid for hitting targets), but was put in a position of trust by the manager to hand out work to the team and effectively supervise us. He instead used to hand out scraps but kept most of the work to himself so he could get the bonus on his wages. I once asked him about it in private, he didnt like it, and this so called gross misconduct happened 2 days later.

    After I got home, I had a text from one of my colleagues asking what happened as he thought it was all weird, I wasnt even allowed to collect my coat from my chair, so I told him, and then he had told me others had been treated the same as well in the past, people just been abruptly sacked. I then researched and found a place to ring in relation to wrong dismissal cases, and had a conversation with them, in my case they said it was not unfair dismissal, but it was wrongful dismissal, they rang the company and got back to me, they said themselves it was very weird, and the company was unable to explain to them the gross misconduct, as gross misconduct could not be proved they were required to give me notice which they failed to do, they were not willing for me to work out my notice so agreed to just pay me the missing wages for the notice without me going to work for it.

    End of the day a company can sack you for whatever reason, I was never going to get my job back, but at least I made them know they should have followed a correct procedure and got wages out of them. After that experience I learnt to be careful in how I treat any superiors I have as clearly its not just things like punctuality and how good you at your job but also maintaining working relationships. I eventually just started my own business tho so my only boss is my clients.
    Last edited by Chrysalis; 01-12-2017 at 3:18 PM.
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 1st Dec 17, 3:17 PM
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    Chrysalis
    What's so good about universal benefits?


    Let's say that hypothetically it's cheaper (it isn't in the medium to long term), why is it such a good thing?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    People need to stop thinking about things like "cost".

    Giving individuals unconditional income is a great thing, not just for human rights, but for the economy itself. People with money will spend it, especially if they poor, they will spend all of it. Spent money is funnelled back into shops etc., so jobs are preserved, businesses stay alive, more tax gets paid and so forth. Its all a positive.

    Sadly the public has been trained into thinking that things like social security are a drain on the economy thats untenable. This has led to the kind of thoughts brought up in this thread about been undeserving etc. They couldnt be more wrong.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 3:26 PM
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    Comms69
    No-one has trained me, tyvm. I don't believe that state support should be as wide or as long lasting as it currently is.


    I don't agree with social benefits as a lifestyle. Or in many cases social benefits at all. I think people should stand on their own two feet wherever possible.
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 1st Dec 17, 3:29 PM
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    Chrysalis
    No-one has trained me, tyvm. I don't believe that state support should be as wide or as long lasting as it currently is.


    I don't agree with social benefits as a lifestyle. Or in many cases social benefits at all. I think people should stand on their own two feet wherever possible.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    You want us back in medieval times then bud?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 3:36 PM
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    Comms69
    You want us back in medieval times then bud?
    Originally posted by Chrysalis


    Why do you say that?


    I don't see whats so fundamentally wrong with expecting people to look out for themselves?
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 1st Dec 17, 3:42 PM
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    Chrysalis
    Because medieval times is what we had when you had no state as such, and people fended for themselves. People had wars for food and land, the weak just died. Houses got burned down. Great times right.

    What your post suggested just blew me away with how unrealistic it is.

    So someone has no income and they have to fend for themselves, what do you think they will do? they will rob or whatever they need to do to survive.

    Or do you think the moment someone loses a job for whatever reason they can walk into a new one 5 mins later with no gap in income?

    There is a lot wrong in thinking everyone can do everything themselves with no standing together as a community. Your idea also promotes a unhealthy situation where you have a group of individuals just looking after #1 and not thinking about society as a whole, its a very unhealthy way of going about things.
    Last edited by Chrysalis; 01-12-2017 at 3:44 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 4:03 PM
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    Comms69
    Because medieval times is what we had when you had no state as such, and people fended for themselves. People had wars for food and land, the weak just died. Houses got burned down. Great times right. - But I didn't say that? So why are you putting words in my mouth?

    What your post suggested just blew me away with how unrealistic it is. - perhaps you should see someone about that

    So someone has no income and they have to fend for themselves, what do you think they will do? they will rob or whatever they need to do to survive. - And then they'll be punished. Choose to work hard, educate yourself, improve yourself and your position, or turn to crime and spend your life in and out of prison.

    Or do you think the moment someone loses a job for whatever reason they can walk into a new one 5 mins later with no gap in income? - Im sure sometimes that happens, other times not so much. Perhaps saving would be a good idea?

    There is a lot wrong in thinking everyone can do everything themselves with no standing together as a community. Your idea also promotes a unhealthy situation where you have a group of individuals just looking after #1 and not thinking about society as a whole, its a very unhealthy way of going about things.
    Originally posted by Chrysalis


    I care about my own. They are the priority, not you, not your neighbour, not mrs miggins down the road.


    I don't want anything bad to happen to anyone. But my priority will always be my family.
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 1st Dec 17, 4:41 PM
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    Chrysalis
    I think you live in some kind of euphoria where there is no problems and people are always in control of their destiny.

    The real world isnt like that, its all I can say really.

    You know what you said, you didnt say its a priority, you said simply enough that people should only have their own two feet to stand on when they are not working.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 4:48 PM
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    Comms69
    I think you live in some kind of euphoria where there is no problems and people are always in control of their destiny.

    The real world isnt like that, its all I can say really.

    You know what you said, you didnt say its a priority, you said simply enough that people should only have their own two feet to stand on when they are not working.
    Originally posted by Chrysalis


    No there are plenty of problems, just your problems are not my problems.


    No I said- direct quote:
    I don't agree with social benefits as a lifestyle. Or in many cases social benefits at all. I think people should stand on their own two feet wherever possible.
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 1st Dec 17, 5:59 PM
    • 194 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    I think you live in some kind of euphoria where there is no problems and people are always in control of their destiny.

    The real world isnt like that, its all I can say really.

    You know what you said, you didnt say its a priority, you said simply enough that people should only have their own two feet to stand on when they are not working.
    Originally posted by Chrysalis
    Just a question..what did people do prior to the benefits system which i believe started around mid 40"s (stand to be corrected)...how did they cope.

    Its a great system for a short term safety net..but we all know how easily it gets abused.

    Ive spent time in countries where theres no state handout,and generally people have a greater work ethic,you work and you eat..you stay at home doing nothing and you dont eat,really that black and white and crime isn't any worse than this country.
    If my appalling spelling offends you that much...dont read my posts.
    • Energize
    • By Energize 1st Dec 17, 6:03 PM
    • 374 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    Energize
    What's so good about universal benefits?


    Let's say that hypothetically it's cheaper (it isn't in the medium to long term), why is it such a good thing?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    It ensures people have a basic level of income to survive on, this is the principle our benefits system is based on. Instead though we have dozens of different benefits, tons of different departments and massive administrative costs to deal with as a result.

    If you're referring to the pros/cons of socialist policies like benefits/NHS/schools etc. as a whole though that's another kettle of fish entirely and depends on your personal philosophy.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 1st Dec 17, 7:29 PM
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    Comms69
    And it only works if the state controls prices.

    If everyone income jumped £10k, prices would be higher. Those unemployed and on benefits would be worse off.
    • Energize
    • By Energize 1st Dec 17, 11:13 PM
    • 374 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    Energize
    Price inflation only occurs in the context of monetary inflation, not in response to rises in income, it's a common misconception that is disproven by real world examples such as the minimum wage, increases in the minimum wage do not result in price inflation.

    But that aside, that's not how a universal benefit like negative income tax works. It doesn't raise everyone's income, it guarantees a minimum. So for example using a 2:1 ratio if someone earns £0 they get £5k from the government, if they earn £10k they get nothing and pay nothing and over that they pay income tax to the government.

    It just seems entirely inconsistent to suggest we treat universal credit/jsa in a different way to any other "benefit" like the NHS and not give it to people who we consider are to blame for their situation.
    Last edited by Energize; 01-12-2017 at 11:47 PM.
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 2nd Dec 17, 1:09 AM
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    • 950 Thanks
    Chrysalis
    Just a question..what did people do prior to the benefits system which i believe started around mid 40"s (stand to be corrected)...how did they cope.

    Its a great system for a short term safety net..but we all know how easily it gets abused.

    Ive spent time in countries where theres no state handout,and generally people have a greater work ethic,you work and you eat..you stay at home doing nothing and you dont eat,really that black and white and crime isn't any worse than this country.
    Originally posted by Samsung_Note2
    They didnt cope unless they had support from family/friends I expect, society wasnt as civil then and not as nice to live in.

    Any civil developed country will have some form of social security, its a basic requirement for reasonable economic success and low crime.

    The immediate effect of removing the safety net would be crime would increase noticeably, then in the longer term there would then be a slow progressive decline of employment rates due to the chain reaction of removing the spending power of these people, this would cause jobs to be lost, then those jobs lost those people lose spending power, and it would fall like dominoes.

    An example is the billions currently paid out by the government to pay rent for low income people, are you saying if those 10s of billions were pulled from the letting market it wouldnt suffer?

    Think of it as enforced circulation of money, you tax, you then spend it, and its circulating money. People with little income will usually spend all of their income as they dont really have the luxury of doing things like putting in a savings account. You give a dole claimant £73 a week, they need to eat etc. so the money gets spent in tesco, maybe some to british gas for electric/gas bill, some to tv licence authority, some to public transport to get round, some to clothes shop to buy clothes and so on. Its all money been put back in the economy, keeping the country moving and avoiding a recession. I am not talking about ideology here but basic economics. When money stops been circulated then you have whats called a recession and we know thats not a good thing.
    Last edited by Chrysalis; 02-12-2017 at 1:16 AM.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 2nd Dec 17, 9:28 AM
    • 18,824 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    Are we really discussing employment issues any more? Or should I move this thread to the Arms for being off topic?
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
    • Chrysalis
    • By Chrysalis 2nd Dec 17, 9:40 AM
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    Chrysalis
    sorry bud.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 2nd Dec 17, 10:00 AM
    • 18,824 Posts
    • 19,143 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    OP, if you are worrying about what the reference might say, there's a fairly easy way to find out. If you have a friend/relative who works in HR, you could ask them to apply for a reference for you. If you don't, you could ask a friend to use their address, knock up some headed paper (or even just say they are in early stages of company formation), and apply for a reference from there. Enclose a SAE for reply or email from a professional sounding address.
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 2nd Dec 17, 10:12 AM
    • 1,300 Posts
    • 1,213 Thanks
    xapprenticex
    Just be careful with what you say at work in future. And if you are going to get shirty with people (assuming they deserve it) in any way, at least be there two years.
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