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  • FIRST POST
    • jb201
    • By jb201 24th Nov 17, 3:29 PM
    • 22Posts
    • 12Thanks
    jb201
    Ownership of Land
    • #1
    • 24th Nov 17, 3:29 PM
    Ownership of Land 24th Nov 17 at 3:29 PM
    Hi All

    I have a situation where a neighbour (UK) is attempting to claim a bit of land that although is technically not registered, it is actually nearer my house that is is theirs. This piece of land is attached to the front of their driveway which is actually to the side of my house.

    I intend to object, but can anyone offer advice as to what grounds to object on? Any legal terms I can use?

    Thanks

    Dave
Page 2
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 25th Nov 17, 11:46 AM
    • 1,412 Posts
    • 2,771 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    Finally been able to download LW/85/1785.

    The area is marked on the plan (page 2 of 4) as "Area reserved for foul sewer pumping station"
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    Great piece of detective work
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 25th Nov 17, 11:51 AM
    • 542 Posts
    • 431 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    Great piece of detective work
    Originally posted by Cheeky_Monkey

    Give them a copy and I would make a practice of parking there now and again to ram home the point.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 25th Nov 17, 12:48 PM
    • 3,280 Posts
    • 6,040 Thanks
    EachPenny
    Where can I download this from please? Is this showing the part in front of the station, i.e. the part they are trying to claim?
    Originally posted by jb201
    http://planningpa.lewes.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=externalDocuments& keyVal=ZZZZ3YJDXD151

    Hopefully that link works, if not search for the planning application reference number and then select the 'Documents' tab.

    It seems best to download and save the PDF rather than trying to use the online viewer.

    Bear in mind this doesn't prove the owner of the pumping station owns the land, it just shows there is a need for the PS owner to be able to access the pumping station for maintenance - for example if they needed to use a crane to lift equipment in and out. If the land is in private ownership that would make it difficult to carry out work, especially in an emergency.

    Also, it looks like there is a manhole on the land in question. People parking on top of this might mean the water company cannot access whatever is under the manhole cover if there was an emergency - so would be good grounds for the 'parking space' to become 'authorised vehicles only'.

    And finally, I would expect the area between the bricked paved area and the claimant's property to be a public right of way (if not established then by historic use), so even if they could claim the bricked paved area as theirs then they might have problems incorporating it into their curtilage. (the plan suggests it is constructed as a cycleway?)
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • G_M
    • By G_M 25th Nov 17, 12:55 PM
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    G_M
    Sorry that link didn't work.

    It must be unregistered though as the council are saying if I do not reply by 8th December the land will become theirs.
    Originally posted by jb201
    Link corrected above, and here.

    Makes no sense - the council do not control land ownership - the Land Registry does.
    • jb201
    • By jb201 26th Nov 17, 1:21 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    Link corrected above, and here.

    Makes no sense - the council do not control land ownership - the Land Registry does.
    Originally posted by G_M
    Sorry I meant Land Registry

    I still cannot search though.

    I am going here right? http://planningpa.lewes.gov.uk/online-applications/

    and then where am I entering LW/85/1785 ?

    Again thank you for your help.
    • tlc678910
    • By tlc678910 26th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    • 490 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    tlc678910
    Hi,
    In your reply to dispute the possession claim it must be worth mentioning that your guest used the space (within the two years you have lived there) and was told that the neighbours owned it, and stating if you had been aware that the neighbours did not own it you and your guests would use it regularly.

    Would your guest that parked there be willing to submit a statement verifying this occurred? It doesn't seem right the neighbours get sole use by lying about the ownership.

    Looks like an overspill space for anyone and their visitors to me.

    Tlc
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 26th Nov 17, 12:41 PM
    • 3,280 Posts
    • 6,040 Thanks
    EachPenny
    I am going here right? http://planningpa.lewes.gov.uk/online-applications/

    and then where am I entering LW/85/1785 ?
    Originally posted by jb201
    Yes, then enter the ref no in the box marked -

    "Enter a keyword, reference number, postcode or single line of an address."

    That should bring up two results - the outline application which is the one with the plan and has that application reference number, and secondly an approval of reserved matters application which has a different reference (LW/86/0209), but refers back to the outline application.

    The reserved matters application (LW/86/0209) is the one for which the documents cannot be viewed online. Ideally you need to get hold of these as well. If you are very lucky the council might email them to you, but I would phone the number 01273 484420 given on the site to ask.

    Davesnave mentioned the signs that appear to have been put up on the fence. I can't see the detail on your picture, but are these put up by the neighbour, or are they something to do with the pumping station? Emergency contact details for example?

    You should really make sure the owners of the pumping station are aware of what is going on and get them to object as well. If it is the local water company then I'd contact them.

    Ideally, rather than speaking to the water company property department (whose job usually is to make money by disposing of land ) you need to get hold of the operations department who will be held responsible if the pumping station fails and they are unable to repair it quickly due to obstruction or non-ownership of the access. The payout/fine in event of flooding or discharge into a watercourse is substantial, so operation departments tend to be more concerned about this kind of thing.

    If the notice on the fence has an "In case of emergency" contact number I'd be tempted to phone this as the easiest way to get through to the right people. It is a bit cheeky, but sometimes is the most effective way of making contact with the people who know what they are talking about. Needless to say, if the number given is "999" don't call that one

    If a pumping station breaks down and cannot be repaired quickly the usual response is to bring in a tanker to empty the contents of the pumping station and to stop it overflowing. It follows that if access in an emergency is not possible then the risk of a pollution event is much higher. There are powers for vehicles to be removed if they are blocking emergency access to manholes on the public highway, but as far as I know the same powers are not available in relation to private land (unless specified in an easement or similar).

    As it appears your house and garden is at a lower level than the top of pumping station then you have a personal, not just 'civic' interest in ensuring emergency maintenance access is maintained. I would include this point in your own objection, even if you cannot get the water company interested.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • cjmillsnun
    • By cjmillsnun 26th Nov 17, 12:48 PM
    • 346 Posts
    • 224 Thanks
    cjmillsnun
    That piece of land (if owned by anybody) would be by Southern Water or the developer (to become the council when it is finally adopted). If the neighbour wants to claim it, they will probably find they need to leave it clear as there will be an easement over it.
    • jb201
    • By jb201 26th Nov 17, 6:17 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    Davesnave mentioned the signs that appear to have been put up on the fence. I can't see the detail on your picture, but are these put up by the neighbour, or are they something to do with the pumping station? Emergency contact details for example?
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    Nope this sign is telling people not to park there. This was only put up recently by number 6 when a guest of mine parked there one night and they knocked on my door asking me to move the car as it is their land! Which was clearly a lie.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 26th Nov 17, 7:51 PM
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    G_M
    Nope this sign is telling people not to park there. This was only put up recently by number 6 when a guest of mine parked there one night and they knocked on my door asking me to move the car as it is their land! Which was clearly a lie.
    Originally posted by jb201
    Hope you politely reasssured them that the car would be moved as soon as the guest was ready to leave?

    And that you subsequently ignored the sign?
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 26th Nov 17, 7:55 PM
    • 14,224 Posts
    • 38,532 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Nope this sign is telling people not to park there. This was only put up recently by number 6 when a guest of mine parked there one night and they knocked on my door asking me to move the car as it is their land! Which was clearly a lie.
    Originally posted by jb201
    Funnily enough - the sign would mysteriously "get lost" if that happened to me in your circumstances. Yep...I can think of a few signs or unofficial amendments to signs round me here that have equally mysteriously got lost.

    I havent been challenged to date on any of it - even the ones I admitted to...
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • tlc678910
    • By tlc678910 27th Nov 17, 9:04 AM
    • 490 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    tlc678910
    Hi,
    you could photograph the signs as part of your argument that the neighbour is claiming sole use by lying that they own the land.
    Tlc
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 27th Nov 17, 11:58 AM
    • 3,442 Posts
    • 5,879 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    It would seem strange that nobody owns a bit of land that has been developed, a developer has spent money on it and they wouldn’t do that without good reason. How long ago were the houses built?

    If I were you I’d be contacting the original developer and the water company who maintain the pumping station to see what they say about it. One or both of them may have stronger cases to reject your neighbours claim than you do. Also check with other neighbours to see if the previous owners of your house freely used the land.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 27th Nov 17, 1:27 PM
    • 42,280 Posts
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    G_M
    Have you yet paid £3 to download the Plan for the Title of the land I identified?

    Is that the land in question or not?
    • jb201
    • By jb201 27th Nov 17, 8:33 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    Hope you politely reasssured them that the car would be moved as soon as the guest was ready to leave?

    And that you subsequently ignored the sign?
    Originally posted by G_M
    Nope because they have claimed all along that the land is theirs. My friends would part there and they would knock on my door telling them to move the car as the land is theirs. After a while of that happening they put the sign up! But as I say until this letter I believed they owned it!
    • jb201
    • By jb201 27th Nov 17, 8:34 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    It would seem strange that nobody owns a bit of land that has been developed, a developer has spent money on it and they wouldn’t do that without good reason. How long ago were the houses built?

    If I were you I’d be contacting the original developer and the water company who maintain the pumping station to see what they say about it. One or both of them may have stronger cases to reject your neighbours claim than you do. Also check with other neighbours to see if the previous owners of your house freely used the land.
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    Houses were built in 1985. I will do. I run a business so fairly busy, but have booked some time in on Friday to go through it all

    Everyone's help has been amazing
    • jb201
    • By jb201 27th Nov 17, 8:40 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    Have you yet paid £3 to download the Plan for the Title of the land I identified?

    Is that the land in question or not?
    Originally posted by G_M
    Sorry what am I looking for on the Land Registry page? Do I put in my property address?

    On page 1 of this post I uploaded a screen of the land in question, does this help for what you were referring to?

    Thanks again for your assistance.

    EDIT, searched for Number 6 and get that more information is available, but then "an unexpected error occurred"

    I can send you money via Paypal if you can help
    Last edited by jb201; 27-11-2017 at 8:46 PM.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 27th Nov 17, 9:18 PM
    • 14,224 Posts
    • 38,532 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    It's possible to get Land Registry stuff the traditional way - by paper - for £7 per item. I've done that before now - and for similar reasons.

    Result being that I found out that land someone was firmly stating was theirs most definitely isnt
    New Year's Resolution already made -

    Don't get mad....get firm ...
    • G_M
    • By G_M 27th Nov 17, 9:45 PM
    • 42,280 Posts
    • 49,123 Thanks
    G_M
    OK so

    * go to Doing a Map Enquiry with the Land Registry,

    * make sure you are on the 'map enquiry' page

    * enter the postcode (that's enough)

    * zoom in on the map and use your curser to find the road.

    * click 'find properties

    * Then centre the search circle at the top of the road, and click once

    * scroll down to see a list of registered Titles in that circle area

    * click on 'information available' for the Title of interest (eg land on the north side of Telscombe Road, Peacehaven??) and buy the Plan (£3). See if the Plan corresponds to the land in question.
    Last edited by G_M; 29-11-2017 at 12:23 PM.
    • jb201
    • By jb201 1st Dec 17, 8:27 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    jb201
    Thanks everyone. Getting all of the paperwork ready tomorrow, will let you know what I send!
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