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  • FIRST POST
    • Robby1988
    • By Robby1988 24th Nov 17, 1:59 PM
    • 20Posts
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    Robby1988
    Finance owing on car we bought
    • #1
    • 24th Nov 17, 1:59 PM
    Finance owing on car we bought 24th Nov 17 at 1:59 PM
    I have potentially managed to get myself into a pickle with finance owing on a car i just bought & i am kicking myself.

    Needed to buy a run around fairly quickly & after a bit of looking around found this car I liked at a reputable local dealer for £3k. Signed on the dotted line & cleared off for a bit whilst they got it serviced and thought I had better do a HPI check before handing over cash. I did & it flagged up saying PSA Finance still hold an interest in the vehicle, tried to call PSA direct to double check but offices shut on Saturday afternoon.

    So I go back to the dealer & raise this with them. They tell me that the car has only just come in as a part exchange, showed me the settlement letter they had obtained from the previous owner (£800 odd) & assured me was getting sorted. They basically made it all seem very normal & even wrote me a letter stating that finance would be cleared on receipt of payment. I needed the car that week, my gut instinct was telling me it’s all ok, I trusted them as a reputable dealer and paid for the car and took it (tin hat is on!). Maybe wouldn’t have done this if the settlement was thousands but anyway...

    Fast forward to the end of the week & PSA are still saying they have an interest in this vehicle. My dealer are insistent that they have sent payment & don’t understand, they have phoned the old keeper & he has told them he’s received a letter from PSA saying he’s missed a payment so I guess he could be s bit concerned to credit file wise.

    Still waiting for the V5 document to come through & then I’m tempted to use the address info to pay the old owner a visit to see if we can resolve this. As a last resort i would honestly take the settlement sum on the chin myself as a lesson learnt, if it avoids a potential reposession of a car worth a few thousand over a £800odd debt or any addition of agents fees.

    Until I can attempt contact with the old owner I am a bit in limbo because PSA won’t talk to me about the account because of data protection.

    Any advice guys & assuming the old owner doesn’t bother sorting this out, do I need to worry about repo agents turning up or will they chase me for the debt first as the new keeper?
    Last edited by Robby1988; 24-11-2017 at 2:04 PM.
Page 2
    • vikingaero
    • By vikingaero 26th Nov 17, 9:01 AM
    • 10,330 Posts
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    vikingaero
    You're not liable for the £800 settlement so why are you worrying about it? That is the dealer's problem.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Whist we are telling the OP not to worry, he could have problems if the HPI/PSA interest isn't cleared when he tries to sell the vehicle in x years time.

    My Dad once bought a car on HP, paid it off as normal, and when he part exchanged the vehicle 8 years later, it was still showing as on finance. Because the car was only worth £1,500 the dealer wasn't bothered, said it was a mistake, and wouldn't worry over £1,500. However he said that if it had been a car worth considerably more then it would have stalled the deal.
    The man without a signature.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 26th Nov 17, 9:03 AM
    • 1,051 Posts
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    badmemory
    I don't think you can say that from the info given.
    Originally posted by jimjames
    Yes I can. A reputable dealer would know better than to land either himself or the new buyer in this position. Also unless the dealer actually changed the ownership of the vehicle then it will be the new owner who is in the dodo not the dealer.
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 26th Nov 17, 11:53 AM
    • 543 Posts
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    bobbymotors
    http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/legal-article-business-law/motor-trade-advice/special-rights-to-customers-buying-cars-subject-to-hire-purchase



    Straight from the Hire Purchase Act



    Clearly covers my original post. Protection only applies where buyer was unaware of the finance outstanding. This is not the case with op, sadly, so protection wouldn't apply
    Originally posted by arcon5


    The clue to this is in my username. I have sold 5000 cars in my time (retired now) and have come across every possible scenario. If you buy a vehicle as a private buyer from someone in he motor trade, any outstanding finance is the responsibilty of the dealer, and never the private buyer.

    As a dealer you are assumed to have sufficient knowledge of how it all works to ensure that any vehicle you sell has clear title. End of story.

    The finance is the dealers problem and doubtless they will sort it out.

    Even if they don't then the buyer will get clear title eventually.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 26th Nov 17, 12:43 PM
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    arcon5
    The clue to this is in my username. I have sold 5000 cars in my time (retired now) and have come across every possible scenario. If you buy a vehicle as a private buyer from someone in he motor trade, any outstanding finance is the responsibilty of the dealer, and never the private buyer.

    As a dealer you are assumed to have sufficient knowledge of how it all works to ensure that any vehicle you sell has clear title. End of story.

    The finance is the dealers problem and doubtless they will sort it out.

    Even if they don't then the buyer will get clear title eventually.
    Originally posted by bobbymotors
    Your personal opinion doesn't change FACT.
    And the fact is your wrong. I've quoted THE LAW as it stands. Your personal view doesn't outweigh the law or the opinions of actual legal professionals.

    The laws very clear in that title only passed to the first private buyer whom bought in good faith with no knowledge of outstanding finance. As innocent buyer clause doesn't apply to op title remains with the finance company, they own the car still and can repossess it if they know op bought it knowingly.

    That is the law. "End of story".
    Last edited by arcon5; 26-11-2017 at 12:49 PM.
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 26th Nov 17, 1:40 PM
    • 543 Posts
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    bobbymotors
    Your personal opinion doesn't change FACT.
    And the fact is your wrong. I've quoted THE LAW as it stands. Your personal view doesn't outweigh the law or the opinions of actual legal professionals.

    The laws very clear in that title only passed to the first private buyer whom bought in good faith with no knowledge of outstanding finance. As innocent buyer clause doesn't apply to op title remains with the finance company, they own the car still and can repossess it if they know op bought it knowingly.

    That is the law. "End of story".
    Originally posted by arcon5

    Not if he bought it from a dealer they can't.

    What you say is correct regarding a private sale.

    But it's not correct regarding a trade sale.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 26th Nov 17, 3:00 PM
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    arcon5
    Not if he bought it from a dealer they can't.

    What you say is correct regarding a private sale.

    But it's not correct regarding a trade sale.
    Originally posted by bobbymotors
    No what I say is correct for ops situation as a private buyer from a trade seller.

    You need to do some of your own research pal because right now your spouting absolute nonsense despite having been proven otherwise.

    It's indisputably clear... the private buyer only has protection if he buys it without knowledge of finance. The law states where there is a chain (ie sold to motor trader then private buyer) the first private buyer benefits from the protection.. again if they buy it unknowingly.


    Yet your still arguing the contrary despite the exact law being quoted above and despite a link to an advise page on a legal professionals website.

    Thank God your out of the motor trade with your tunnel vision
    Last edited by arcon5; 26-11-2017 at 3:05 PM.
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 26th Nov 17, 9:52 PM
    • 543 Posts
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    bobbymotors
    Bored now....

    The op will get good title to the car.
    The dealer is compelled to and will settle the finance.

    And it's 'you're' not 'your'.
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 26th Nov 17, 11:20 PM
    • 3,128 Posts
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    gettingtheresometime
    Yea I know I defiantly canít claim myself an innocent purchaser if it came to that.

    At the moment Iím just taking some comfort from the idea the old owner might be chasing to get this sorted. If he isnít, my main concern is that by the time the problem lands at my door, the currently affordable £800 settlement will have ballooned thanks to agent fees etc. & heaven forbid they just pitch up and take the thing without notice.

    If only PSA would talk to me, Iíd just pay it if it dragged on much longer & then go to the small claims court as someone previously suggested.
    Originally posted by Robby1988
    Honestly it wonít get that far.

    The previous owner will be kicking up such a stink that it will all get sorted quickly - in fact if that payment isnít made this week Iíd do a Paddy Ashdown & eat my hat
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 28th Nov 17, 6:23 PM
    • 15,806 Posts
    • 9,092 Thanks
    motorguy
    Not if he bought it from a dealer they can't.

    What you say is correct regarding a private sale.

    But it's not correct regarding a trade sale.
    Originally posted by bobbymotors
    Speaking as another ex motor trader i wholly agree with this. Its down to the dealer to sort of the finance.
    Last edited by motorguy; 28-11-2017 at 7:44 PM.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 28th Nov 17, 6:27 PM
    • 15,806 Posts
    • 9,092 Thanks
    motorguy
    http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/legal-article-business-law/motor-trade-advice/special-rights-to-customers-buying-cars-subject-to-hire-purchase



    Straight from the Hire Purchase Act



    Clearly covers my original post. Protection only applies where buyer was unaware of the finance outstanding. This is not the case with op, sadly, so protection wouldn't apply
    Originally posted by arcon5
    The O/P was told by the dealer the finance was cleared or would be cleared. They bought it in good faith that there was no other company that would have an ongoing financial interest in the car.

    The finance company would have recourse with the dealer, NOT with the innocent private buyer in this case.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 29th Nov 17, 7:30 PM
    • 543 Posts
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    bobbymotors
    No what I say is correct for ops situation as a private buyer from a trade seller.

    You need to do some of your own research pal because right now your spouting absolute nonsense despite having been proven otherwise.

    It's indisputably clear... the private buyer only has protection if he buys it without knowledge of finance. The law states where there is a chain (ie sold to motor trader then private buyer) the first private buyer benefits from the protection.. again if they buy it unknowingly.


    Yet your still arguing the contrary despite the exact law being quoted above and despite a link to an advise page on a legal professionals website.

    Thank God your out of the motor trade with your tunnel vision
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Yep. Indisputably clear: that what you said was incorrect.

    The dealer is compelled to settle the finance, even if he doesn't the buyer will get title to the car, and the finance company will pursue the dealer and not the buyer. It can be no other way.

    I thank God I'm out of the motor trade too: it means I no longer have to deal with armchair lawyers wanting a car.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 29th Nov 17, 8:05 PM
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    arcon5
    Yep. Indisputably clear: that what you said was incorrect.

    The dealer is compelled to settle the finance, even if he doesn't the buyer will get title to the car, and the finance company will pursue the dealer and not the buyer. It can be no other way.

    I thank God I'm out of the motor trade too: it means I no longer have to deal with armchair lawyers wanting a car.
    Originally posted by bobbymotors


    Brilliant. Your just brilliant.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 29th Nov 17, 8:09 PM
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    arcon5
    The O/P was told by the dealer the finance was cleared or would be cleared. They bought it in good faith that there was no other company that would have an ongoing financial interest in the car.

    The finance company would have recourse with the dealer, NOT with the innocent private buyer in this case.
    Originally posted by motorguy

    He bought in good faith that the dealer would honour an agreement to settle it. He didn't buy not knowing of any outstanding finance.
    The law doesn't say your innocent if you only know of one or less parties with an interest in the vehicle
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 29th Nov 17, 8:50 PM
    • 543 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    bobbymotors


    Brilliant. Your just brilliant.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    it's still 'you're' not 'your'
    • bobbymotors
    • By bobbymotors 29th Nov 17, 9:00 PM
    • 543 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    bobbymotors
    He bought in good faith that the dealer would honour an agreement to settle it. He didn't buy not knowing of any outstanding finance.
    The law doesn't say your innocent if you only know of one or less parties with an interest in the vehicle
    Originally posted by arcon5
    You just don't get it do you. Google all you like, it's a waste of time.

    The dealer bought the car with knowledge of the finance - he is deemed to have that knowledge whether he HPI checked the car or not: if he didn't HPI it then that's his lookout.

    As a motor trader he is legally bound to settle the finance on disposal of the car.

    Since the dealer was the first purchaser AND a motor trader, he therefore HPI'd the car BEFORE the op did. This is important, he owned it before the buyer did, and on resale it's his job to settle it and no one else's.

    A buyer buying from the motor trade is entitled by buying in good faith that the dealer will settle the finance as promised and as obliged to.

    It's for the dealer to settle and no one else, any argument the finance company has is with the dealer and not the op.

    Been there, done that, a very similar but not identical case a number of years ago. As a dealer, it's all down to you, and quite rightly so.

    Although.....

    Would I have bought the car as a member of the public while the finance company still said they had an interest in it? No I wouldn't, because it's aggravation, and if the dealer didn't pay it off and then went skint it would be loads of form filling and grief to ultimately get clear title.

    But clear title would be had in the end.
    Last edited by bobbymotors; 29-11-2017 at 9:08 PM.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 29th Nov 17, 9:38 PM
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    arcon5
    Lol it's you that doesn't get it.

    The dealer buys it with finance and gets no rights... finance company still own it.
    If an innocent purchaser buys it from the dealer they get title.
    To be an innocent purchase you must meet two bits of criteria: be a private buyer and have no knowledge of the finance.
    The net result being the dealer has breached the agreement with op and the finance company still have title. The dealers requirements to settle is contractual with op.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 29th Nov 17, 9:39 PM
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    arcon5
    it's still 'you're' not 'your'
    Originally posted by bobbymotors
    Well done .

    About the only thing you've been right about in the last two pages. Pat on back for you.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 29th Nov 17, 9:43 PM
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    arcon5
    Ok I'm not going round in circles anymore. The laws pretty clear about this. I've posted a quote of the actual law. There's legal advice pages out there clearly covering this.

    Take from it what you will. Force the dealers hand and have them stick to the agreement and settle it.
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 29th Nov 17, 9:54 PM
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    bigadaj
    Ok I'm not going round in circles anymore. The laws pretty clear about this. I've posted a quote of the actual law. There's legal advice pages out there clearly covering this.

    Take from it what you will. Force the dealers hand and have them stick to the agreement and settle it.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Any case law or precedent?

    The terms quoted seem aimed to stop any dodgy dealings between connected parties rather than a true independent buyer.
    • atrixblue.-MFR-.
    • By atrixblue.-MFR-. 29th Nov 17, 10:06 PM
    • 6,465 Posts
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    atrixblue.-MFR-.
    The moral thing to do as a trader is sort this out so both the persons credit rating can be sorted and the good clean title can be given to the buyer. That's the moral and honest thing to do as a trader is put admin things right.


    As the law stands, Its clear, There is no recourse for the OP in this case, he knew there was finance owed, therefore protection is nullified. You really really shouldn't take a car from the forecourt without confirmation that the finance bill is fully paid if this isn't possible due to weekends or bank holidays, then leave the car with the dealership retain full payment (minus your deposit) and arrange collection that is within a reasonable time scale for the dealer to clear the finance and get you the evidence this has been done. I always check HPI I ALWAYS ask for evidence the finance is cleared (and a cheque in the post sent via recorded delivery wont cut it for me) Ive seen repossessed cars from people who trusted a dealer to pay a car on finance off only not to and have it reported stolen recovered by finance co, recovered back to finance holding yard, and not released until someone pays off the bill or a court decides who holds legal title.
    I make spelling mistakes, its not intentional, its a condition I have please afford people who have these conditions some respect and not single out their posts for correcting mistakes.
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