Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 23rd Nov 17, 8:35 PM
    • 628Posts
    • 185Thanks
    beefturnmail
    LLoyds internet banking fraud detection
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 8:35 PM
    LLoyds internet banking fraud detection 23rd Nov 17 at 8:35 PM
    Had some 'fun' earlier today with Lloyds bank security\fraud detection. I tried to transfer a fairly large amount of money (some '000s) out of a current account, but not that huge and certainly never had any problems transferring money of this size around before, by faster payment.

    It was to a new savings account, so I went through all the security of setting up a new payment (various passwords, then an automated call where I verify the payment). All ok, so I do a test payment of £1 (in case I've keyed in any of the account details incorrectly). When I can see that goes through ok, I then follow up with the full amount. Lloyds decide to decline the payment - annoying enough, but I thought maybe it was over the faster payment limit or something, so I'd need to make 2 payments of half the amount each.

    Then I realise they've also decided to lock me out of all my accounts and I have to ring a fraud number. This I do, and get several more security questions: what's the payment for, plus various questions taken from my credit file (who's my mortgage with, what's the o/s balance etc.). I pass all of this security, and the rep then goes away to 'investigate' for about 10 minutes, before telling me I have to go into a branch with photo ID, and he can't tell me the reason why!

    I try complaining for a bit, but the rep hides behind the 'for your security' line. So eventually I give up, go to the branch, who ring the fraud line for me and pass me over to the same person I was speaking to from home, who then unlocks my accounts and finally tells me the reason why it was blocked in the first place: I was expecting him to say something to do with money laundering (the money had only recently come into the Lloyds account from another savings account via a current account with a different bank), but the reason he give is suspected malware on my computer!

    This sounds like rubbish to me - e.g. how would their internet banking systems be able to detect malware on my computer? And even if it could, why couldn't he tell me this over the phone - why do I need to go into a branch with photo ID? The moment I get home I run an Anti-virus scan which comes up blank.
Page 2
    • FriendlyFoe
    • By FriendlyFoe 26th Nov 17, 6:45 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    FriendlyFoe
    I don't think this is right - the bank account is the account holder's property (i.e. mine).
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    It’s not. The account is the property of the bank as are deposits to it. You are granted certain access to the account based on a supplier agreement.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 26th Nov 17, 7:16 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    18cc
    There is no such thing as a bank account it doesn't exist and therefore nobody 'owns it'

    there is just a computer program at Lloyds accessing a gigantic amount of data - you the customer are allowed to manipulate a few megabytes of this data and EG make a payment which will change the value of your data EG your total balance

    If Lloyds fell over tomorrow then the fscs would simply ask NatWest for example to open up another set of data and set that data to the value of the total amount that was showing at Lloyds

    Nothing exists in the sense of the word of 'owning' an account all that exists is hardware software and a set of permissions
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 26th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    What a load of nonsense some people spout on here!

    It’s not. The account is the property of the bank as are deposits to it. You are granted certain access to the account based on a supplier agreement.
    Originally posted by FriendlyFoe
    So if I die, the bank account won't form part of my estate then? - since it is not my property?

    And a bank account certainly 'exists' - I think the point trying to be made was that it's not a ringfenced bandle of cash in a vault somewhere, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, otherwise you could equally say that various other intangible things don't 'exist' either (e.g. Lloyds Bank, a mortgage, the number '3')
    Last edited by beefturnmail; 26-11-2017 at 8:48 PM.
    • FriendlyFoe
    • By FriendlyFoe 26th Nov 17, 11:28 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    FriendlyFoe
    If you die the executor of your will executes on your behalf. The legality of bank deposits is made complex by other protections high street consumers have but the essence is; your deposit becomes the banks liability. What you get back is a contract stating a return of the deposit on demand (provided certain hoops are jumped through).

    I think the previous poster was speaking in philosophical terms about accounts not really existing.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 27th Nov 17, 11:14 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    18cc
    Well I don't propose to prolong this thread by posting a lot more but one thing I can assure you is that your account is just part of a giant computer program and associated data and no more 'exists' thank the little girl in the computer in Stephen Goldin's 'Sweet Dreams Melissa'.

    Your £5000 deposit at Lloyds has already been lent to someone who now also has £5000 (a loan) sitting in their account so which of the two £5000s is the 'real' one...

    You have a set of permissions to operate on this database (account number, login details, a balance, transaction history etc) but nothing exists until and unless you withdraw it into cash or gold or whatever.

    As for the number '3' - Google 'the philosophy of mathematics' or 'do numbers exist'
    Last edited by 18cc; 27-11-2017 at 11:19 AM.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 27th Nov 17, 11:19 AM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    Well I don't propose to prolong this thread by posting a lot more but one thing I can assure you is that your account is just part of a giant computer program and associated data and no more 'exists' thank the little girl in the computer in Arthur C Clarke's 'Sweet Dreams Melissa'.

    Your £5000 deposit at Lloyds has already been lent to someone who now also has £5000 (a loan) sitting in their account so which of the two £5000s is the 'real' one...

    You have a set of permissions to operate on this database (account number, login details, a balance, transaction history etc) but nothing exists until and unless you withdraw it into cash or gold or whatever.

    As for the number '3' - Google 'the philosophy of mathematics' or 'do numbers exist'
    Originally posted by 18cc
    See the first line of my post #23
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 27th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    18cc
    Yes I agree with you some people do spout a lot of nonsense on here
    • GingerFurball
    • By GingerFurball 4th Dec 17, 1:30 PM
    • 949 Posts
    • 893 Thanks
    GingerFurball
    You misunderstand - it's not the payment being blocked that I am complaining about - it's the fact that all my accounts were blocked as a result of one suspect transfer and they were not unblocked when I spoke to the fraud team over the phone and passed the extremely high level of security.
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    If you'd passed the security you wouldn't have been asked to visit a branch.
    DEBT FREE!

    Debt free by Xmas 2014: £3555.67/£4805.67 (73.99%)
    Debt free by Xmas 2015: £1250/£1250 (100.00%)
    • Nual
    • By Nual 4th Dec 17, 9:02 PM
    • 142 Posts
    • 59 Thanks
    Nual
    I had a similar issue with Lloyds on the 1st. Moved money in to satisfy the requirements for no fee, tried to move the money back out plus interest as I have done many times, and received a message that that the receiving bank could not receive faster payments and to transfer the money a different way. I went round this loop 4 or 5 times from the beginning and then rang Lloyds. 5 + minutes of press this etc, then waiting 7 minutes to speak to a person then loads of security questions. Operator then opened the account and could see what I had been doing and was I sure I had done it to this account before and after another 5 minutes moved the money for me. She said it was a minor glitch and should be fine next time....
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 5th Dec 17, 10:27 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    18cc
    Exactly - if he had passed security he would not have been asked to visit a branch. This shows simply that Lloyds security checks are not fit for purpose as they can't identify you.

    This is the nub of the problem - not that Lloyds ask for some additional verification but that providing this is time-consuming and error-prone.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 5th Dec 17, 11:22 AM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    Exactly - if he had passed security he would not have been asked to visit a branch. This shows simply that Lloyds security checks are not fit for purpose as they can't identify you.

    This is the nub of the problem - not that Lloyds ask for some additional verification but that providing this is time-consuming and error-prone.
    Originally posted by 18cc
    I did pass security on the phone. Or at least, I was not told that I did not pass security, at any point on the phone or in branch. Instead I was given some bulls*** story about malware on my PC.

    And I am not necessarily a 'he'!
    • FriendlyFoe
    • By FriendlyFoe 5th Dec 17, 1:22 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    FriendlyFoe
    I did pass security on the phone. Or at least, I was not told that I did not pass security, at any point on the phone or in branch. Instead I was given some bulls*** story about malware on my PC.

    And I am not necessarily a 'he'!
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    Why is it a bulls*** story?

    Yahoos top search result for, ‘Lloyds Bank’, during November was a paid for advert that was a fraudulent version of the Lloyds Internet Banking website. It installed malware on certain visiting devices.

    If you really believe is was a bulls*** story, then log a complaint as ya believe the bank was lying.

    If you don’t like the security you can close your account and move to another bank with security of your liking.

    Or you can request to have the security prevention turned off. However you will have to accept liability for all fraudulent transactions that leave your account.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 5th Dec 17, 2:22 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    Why is it a bulls*** story?

    .
    Originally posted by FriendlyFoe
    Because I was told that the reason why my account was blocked and could not be unblocked until I had gone into branch with photo ID was 'suspected malware on my PC'. This is bulls*** because 1) there is no way Lloyds internet banking system could directly detect malware on my PC (anyone with a reasonable understanding of how malware detection software works would know this), 2) Supposing they had detected malware indirectly by e.g. the pattern of activity on the account (which I could buy), why can't it then be unblocked when I phone in - do they think the 'malware' is able to automatically generate a call and provide very human responses over a phoneline? That is some sophisticated malware! Therefore the alternative conclusion - the malware story is bulls**** - seems the most likely one.

    If the reason I had to go in, was because I did indeed fail security (which I don't think I did - I answered the questions correctly as far as I am aware), why wasn't I told this. Then as you say, I could make an informed decision to ditch Lloyds if I didn't like their security procedures. I have complained to Lloyds on this basis - not the account being blocked per se, but the nonsense about malware.
    Last edited by beefturnmail; 05-12-2017 at 4:23 PM.
    • FriendlyFoe
    • By FriendlyFoe 5th Dec 17, 3:23 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    FriendlyFoe
    Because I was told that the reason why my account was blocked and could not be unblocked until I had gone into branch with photo ID was 'suspected malware on my PC'. This is bulls*** because 1) there is no way Lloyds internet banking system could directly detect malware on my PC (anyone with a reasonable understanding of how malware detection software works would know this), 2) Supposing they had detected malware indirectly by e.g. the pattern of activity on the account (which I could buy), why can't it then be unblocked when I phone in - do they think the 'malware' is able to automatically generate a call and provide very human responses over a phoneline? That is some sophisticated malware! Therefore the alternative conclusion - the malware story is bulls**** - seems the most likely one.

    If the reason I had to go in, was because I did indeed fail security (which I don't think I did - I answered the question correctly as far as I am aware), why wasn't I told this. Then as you say, I could make an informed decision to ditch Lloyds if I didn't like their security procedures. I have complained to Lloyds on this basis - not the account being blocked per se, but the nonsense about malware.
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    I totally get where you’re coming from but I still believe your issues are misplaced. Passing security does not equal verification. Verification is entirely at the banks own requirement.

    They seemingly had a malware concern at the automated level. The malware dectection is genuinely very sophisticated despite your beliefs. This may not have been their only concern.

    Upon speaking to you they cleared you through high level identification. Then, the conversation they had with you, they were verifying that identification and the suspect activity. You did not satisfy that second element. If it was only about malware then that can be resolved on the phone. If there is a money laundering concern, learned after they started talking with you, or as part of the activity there is no way that is getting sorted on the phone. They legally cannot tell you if they have a mondery laundering concern and they are under no obligation to specify how the security systems detects malware.

    So if you don’t want those security checks then simply don’t sign up to a service ie Internet Banking that states those checks can happen and they reserve the right to not accept a payment instruction.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 5th Dec 17, 4:32 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    After writing to complain, I received a phone call from Lloyds complaints resolution just now. They upheld part of my complaint (I shouldn't have been told the malware story - the rep accepted that this was false), but not the security procedure part, as they basically have a catch-all in their security procedures which means they can refer someone to branch for essentially any reason they like.

    The rep was unable to listen to my call with the fraud detection team (for obvious reasons), so still don't know the real reason why it happened. I suspect when I phoned fraud detection, I got through to somebody relatively new to the job.
    Last edited by beefturnmail; 05-12-2017 at 4:54 PM.
    • FriendlyFoe
    • By FriendlyFoe 5th Dec 17, 8:54 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    FriendlyFoe
    After writing to complain, I received a phone call from Lloyds complaints resolution just now. They upheld part of my complaint (I shouldn't have been told the malware story - the rep accepted that this was false), but not the security procedure part, as they basically have a catch-all in their security procedures which means they can refer someone to branch for essentially any reason they like.

    The rep was unable to listen to my call with the fraud detection team (for obvious reasons), so still don't know the real reason why it happened. I suspect when I phoned fraud detection, I got through to somebody relatively new to the job.
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    The rep wouldn’t know anything about the malware and so they have then themselves have provided false information. Additionally they absolutely, 100%, can listen to the calls with fraud. If that complaint handling rep has explicitly told you the above, they have flatly lied to you.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 5th Dec 17, 9:18 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    Maybe. But they've given me £40 compo\hush money, so I'm not going to waste any more time on it.
    • Heng Leng
    • By Heng Leng 6th Dec 17, 2:06 AM
    • 4,270 Posts
    • 1,312 Thanks
    Heng Leng
    I wish savings accounts could be switched like Isas where the money never hits your banking account but is transferred straight between providers
    Originally posted by 18cc
    Many providers can transfer funds directly to new (savings) accounts or issue a cheque that can be deposited directly.
    • GingerFurball
    • By GingerFurball 11th Dec 17, 10:06 PM
    • 949 Posts
    • 893 Thanks
    GingerFurball
    Exactly - if he had passed security he would not have been asked to visit a branch. This shows simply that Lloyds security checks are not fit for purpose as they can't identify you.

    This is the nub of the problem - not that Lloyds ask for some additional verification but that providing this is time-consuming and error-prone.
    Originally posted by 18cc
    They can identify you.

    Security isn't just 'I answered the questions correctly.' A good fraudster will also correctly answer security questions asked, the security process relies on more than that.
    DEBT FREE!

    Debt free by Xmas 2014: £3555.67/£4805.67 (73.99%)
    Debt free by Xmas 2015: £1250/£1250 (100.00%)
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

32Posts Today

4,200Users online

Martin's Twitter