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  • FIRST POST
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 23rd Nov 17, 4:50 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    NPM Northampton Appeal Lost
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:50 PM
    NPM Northampton Appeal Lost 23rd Nov 17 at 4:50 PM
    Right so I'been stung by these a-holes twice in a week now.

    Fighting Smart Parking by going through POPLA was easy and thank you for all of your help previously.

    The problem I have this time is that NPM have got me twice in my company car. They sent the PCN to the lease hire company who subsequently passed it onto myself. I sent the IPC appeal letter but NPM have snubbed it, providing no real evidence or answers as usual.

    Normally I would just ignore and wait (like I did with my first PCN on my own car with NPM) but the problem I have is that the lease hire company have threatened to pay up in the event the appeal is declined then subtract the money from my wages!

    I initially contacted the lease company asking them to transfer liability to take them out of the equation which, for some reason, they declined to do so now the appeal is lost, I'm concerned about wage deduction.

    Long story short, NPM have control over a private road where I live in a block of flats. I was issued with a visitors permit which was clearly displayed however they claim it is invalid (the permit was issued to me by the estate agents)

    My other PCN which happened a few days later shows no permit, however as always their signage is misleading and the driver forgot to display it that day- not that it matters as apparently they deem it invalid anyway!

    So my question is, what is the next step? If I tell the lease company and my head office I lost they appeal, they will pay up and claim back the charge to me, plus charge me an additional £15 admin fee per PCN. Is it recommended to appeal to the IAS?

    Thank you!
Page 1
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 23rd Nov 17, 5:01 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    • #2
    • 23rd Nov 17, 5:01 PM
    • #2
    • 23rd Nov 17, 5:01 PM
    Its worth noting that their 'clear signage' has also been badly modified, with any mention of permits being covered up with 'NO PARKING AT ANY TIME' however their reason for the PCN is 'NO VALID PERMIT'
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Nov 17, 6:31 PM
    • 16,605 Posts
    • 25,948 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 6:31 PM
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 6:31 PM
    You!!!8217;ll win nothing at the IAS.

    In terms of your lease company, you need to study hard about what your contract with them says about penalties, fines or parking charges. The two former elements are definitely not what you!!!8217;ve had - and you!!!8217;ll have to work hard to argue this with them. It!!!8217;s highly unlikely that there will be any mention of the latter. But you need to study the document to determine what it says.

    The BVRLA is the trade association covering vehicle lease and hire companies and they have an agreed protocol for dealing with private parking tickets. They have clearly, in your case, not followed that protocol, so you will need to use that as one of your weapons in fighting them.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0

    Just as an aside, if you!!!8217;ve personally appealed to the PPC they may have taken their eye off the hire company and confine their efforts to chasing you?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 23rd Nov 17, 7:44 PM
    • 17,317 Posts
    • 21,698 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:44 PM
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:44 PM
    also bear in mind that once the lease company names the lessee (name and address of lessee - ie:- keeper , ie:- YOU) , they are no longer responsible under POFA2012
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 23rd Nov 17, 10:42 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 10:42 PM
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 10:42 PM
    Well they never mentioned it was me, I don't understand why because they could have removed themselves from the situation and transferred the liability to me. I was the one who declared that I was the 'hirer' on my appeal letter copied form the newbies thread.

    I'll have to do some digging because I do not remember signing an agreement with the lease company unless my employee handbook covers this sort of thing. The PCN was issued on 13/10- the day I was given the car. Sods law
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 23rd Nov 17, 11:48 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,712 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:48 PM
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:48 PM
    If NPM's initial PCN to the lease company did not comply with POFA then there would have been no liability to transfer to the hirer in the first place.

    If the PCN did not comply, you should write to the lease company to explain why NPM cannot hold them liable for the charge and that under no circumstance should they pay. Ask the lease company to notify you immediately should NPM continue to pursue them for the charge.
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 5th Dec 17, 1:53 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 17, 1:53 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Dec 17, 1:53 PM
    Does POFA apply to 14 days after the incident date or issue date?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Dec 17, 2:13 PM
    • 1,676 Posts
    • 1,872 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 17, 2:13 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Dec 17, 2:13 PM
    Obviously 14 days after the incident. If it was 14 days after issue very few PPCs would fall foul...
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 5th Dec 17, 6:00 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 17, 6:00 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 17, 6:00 PM
    Thanks

    I thought it was but I was just clarifying.

    I sent an email to the lease hire company instructing them to not under any circumstances pay as NPM had not complied with POFA but they seem to think NPM did (NTKs arrived after day 14 of incident on all three occasions)

    I have separately emailed the land owners to complain which after 2 weeks they have still not acknowledged.

    A separate complaint has been logged with my letting agent as it was they who issued the apparent invalid permits.

    NPM through all of their appeal responses have failed to address any of the points I made (copied from the newbies thread) and failed to provide any sufficient evidence. Their use of home made labels and duck tape have created complete confusion and offer zero clarity
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Dec 17, 6:47 PM
    • 5,604 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    KeithP
    Does POFA apply to 14 days after the incident date or issue date?
    Originally posted by Bunglebear32
    The 14 days you speak of is 14 days to get the NtK to the leasing company.


    (NTKs arrived after day 14 of incident on all three occasions)
    Originally posted by Bunglebear32
    Arrived after 14 days with the leasing company?
    .
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 5th Dec 17, 8:54 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    Thanks Keith. That is correct, the hire company received it after 14 days and forwarded onto me on the same day.

    I'm currently trying to sort yet another PCN for my mother in law. Same road, same issue, same company. However this time they issued on day 7 and DO State POFA.
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 5th Dec 17, 9:18 PM
    • 26,651 Posts
    • 34,279 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    Its worth noting that their 'clear signage' has also been badly modified, with any mention of permits being covered up with 'NO PARKING AT ANY TIME' however their reason for the PCN is 'NO VALID PERMIT'
    Originally posted by Bunglebear32
    "No Parking At Any Time" surely means that its not a parking offence but Trespass. Wait for more knowledgeable people than me to confirm or otherwise.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 5th Dec 17, 9:28 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    I've counted 4 different signs along the stretch of road and car park. Well, the same sign modified in 4 different ways with black tape and stickers (ignoring the select few where residents have altered them themselves with "Soul-less b*st*rds" and "we hate you")

    It's a nice street, honesly!
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 15th Jan 18, 6:30 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    Hi all

    So I have now accumulated 8 PCNs since October from these cowboys for my works vehicle and 3 for my personal car. Despite appealing to all of the works PCNS as the hirer/keeper and providing my own details, they are still in some instances pursuing payment from the lease company, who after 2 notices will deduct the £100 charge from my wages

    I have (possibly wrongly) contacted NPM by phone to see if they will sell me the correct permit for the roadside but they told me to approach the landowners, who passed me back to NPM and both refused. Despite me telling them there are two vehicles in the household and they have not provided adequate permits, they both refuse to help.

    This is now putting a strain on my career with the company I work for as I am constantly receiving these PCNs and senior management are aware.

    I have instructed my company and the lease company not to pay under any circumstances.

    This is now becoming more of a hassle and I need some advice please. Either NPM are bombarding me with PCNS in the hope that through bullying I'll pay up or they're trying to get enough PCNs together to put to court although I feel the latter is less likely.

    Help please!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Jan 18, 6:40 PM
    • 8,094 Posts
    • 7,367 Thanks
    The Deep
    From what you have told us the PPC would struggle on several fronts in court, as would the leasing company if they tried to make to pay what is, in law, an invoice alleging a debt which you dispute.

    Why not let them take you to court, and counter claim for improper use of your DVLA data and, perhaps, harassment.

    I am puzzled why you need a permit to park in your own space, what does your lease/AST say about parking, exact wording please>

    WRT your employer, tell them that it is most likely that the PPC and the MA are acting unlawfully, and probably contrary to your leasehold right to "peaceful enjoyment" under the Landlord and Tenants Acts.
    Last edited by The Deep; 15-01-2018 at 7:01 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 15th Jan 18, 6:44 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    I doubt they will go to court. I've just checked out BMPA and of the 10,433 tickets issued last year, there were 0 court hearings
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 18, 7:02 PM
    • 53,901 Posts
    • 67,559 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Get your MP on board to help you, NOW, this week, urgently.

    Write to NPM (very urgent) and name yourself as driver and day-to-day keeper, and list all the PCNs and tell them if they fail to properly transfer liability to you then you will make an immediate complaint to the DVLA, David Dunford.

    Make it obvious you have copied in your MP as well, by naming him/her, and also state that you have retained proof of posting/emailing this information.

    If you can't email this to the PPC, then send a letter, but NOT 'signed for'. Just use 1st class post with a free certificate of posting from the PO counter.

    And stop parking there.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 23rd Jan 18, 7:13 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    Thank you for the advice Coupon Mad. I have done exactly this.

    With regards to parking elsewhere, this simply isn't an option. NPM control the majority of roads and car parks near me and there are no free to park without permit roads available. I have even contacted NPM and Bellway who own the land offering to even PAY for a permit to allow me to park on the road but neither company wants to help. Unfortunately my tenancy doesn't expire until October and with 3 PCNs issued this year already, I don't know what to do.
    • Bunglebear32
    • By Bunglebear32 30th Jan 18, 1:12 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Bunglebear32
    Hi all.

    I'm sure you're all getting bored of me now but it appears NPM have a personal vendetta against me, receiving a fresh PCN in the post daily. On one instance they even photographed my personal vehicle at 1am last week and I'm receiving the paperwork within 4 days of incident.

    My MP has still not replied nor have NPM acknowledged my email to them. Any advice please?

    Thanks
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 30th Jan 18, 1:20 PM
    • 34,496 Posts
    • 18,462 Thanks
    Quentin
    As you will have realised, not a lot you can do to stop them issuing (apart from parking elsewhere), and making sure they know you are keeper of the company vehicle


    And wait and see if they do embark on court action
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