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  • FIRST POST
    • brinders
    • By brinders 23rd Nov 17, 1:30 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 2Thanks
    brinders
    Overstay ticket on a hire car - Smart Parking
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 1:30 PM
    Overstay ticket on a hire car - Smart Parking 23rd Nov 17 at 1:30 PM
    Hi

    I've had a look through the newbies thread here and can't find an explanation of what we should do, hence starting this.

    So, we have a PCN from Smart Parking on a car that was a hire car (courtesy car while ours was in a garage). We first found out about this last week when the hire company sent us a charge for their handling of it. The PCN has now arrived to us in my wife's name - she was the driver and her name was on the hire agreement.

    According to the entry and exit images we were in the car park for 4 hours, 10 minutes and 50 seconds. We paid for 4 hours (we know this because we recall saying how we'd just got back to the car in time), though we don't have any evidence as we binned the ticket when the hire car went back, and we paid by cash.

    I've seen somewhere on the site that people are now allowed 10 minutes grace from ticket expiry to departure. That would mean that I would have had to have paid for the ticket within 50 seconds of entering the car park, which is somewhat doubtful in any circumstances.

    What are my options here? Can I just ignore, and if not, which procedure/template should I follow?

    Thanks for any advice.
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 23rd Nov 17, 1:55 PM
    • 7,705 Posts
    • 7,974 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 23rd Nov 17, 1:55 PM
    • #2
    • 23rd Nov 17, 1:55 PM
    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a
    driver who enters your car park but decides not to park,
    to leave the car park within a reasonable period without
    having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’
    in which to decide if they are going to stay or go.
    If the
    driver is on your land without permission you should still
    allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave
    before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace
    period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask
    what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave
    the private car park after the parking contract has ended,
    before you take enforcement action.


    is it not possible that you entered the wrong VRN when you bought the ticket?
    Last edited by pappa golf; 23-11-2017 at 1:58 PM.
    • StaffsSW
    • By StaffsSW 23rd Nov 17, 3:42 PM
    • 5,383 Posts
    • 5,423 Thanks
    StaffsSW
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 3:42 PM
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 3:42 PM
    Also worth checking to see if the Notice to Hirer sent by Smart complies with para 13 of POFA 2012. I suspect that this will give you some more points of defence.
    <--- Nothing to see here - move along --->
    • brinders
    • By brinders 23rd Nov 17, 4:44 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    brinders
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:44 PM
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:44 PM
    Thanks for the comments and advice.

    I can't see from the POFA12 anything that would cause an error.

    On the grace period/reg number - I'm 99.9% certain that I keyed in the right number, but could always have hit a wrong one.

    The PCN states that we "... either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining in the car park for longer than permitted". I suspect it is the latter as we definitely bought 4 hours, though cannot prove this.

    Are we able to demand evidence of the ticket purchase time, as presumably this was recorded by the machine when we bought it?

    Also, is completely ignoring it an option?

    Thanks.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd Nov 17, 7:07 PM
    • 4,731 Posts
    • 3,069 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:07 PM
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:07 PM
    I've had a look through the newbies thread here and can't find an explanation of what we should do, hence starting this.
    Originally posted by brinders
    Frankly, I find that quite surprising.

    There is a section towards the bottom of the very first post in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread that deals with hire cars.


    Also, is completely ignoring it an option?
    Originally posted by brinders
    Yes it is.

    Not a recommended option though.
    It will cost you a lot of money.
    Last edited by KeithP; 23-11-2017 at 7:13 PM.
    .
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 PM
    • 609 Posts
    • 1,563 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 PM
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 PM
    I can't see from the POFA12 anything that would cause an error.
    Originally posted by brinders
    What???? Smart's Notices to Keeper don't even attempt to claim that the keeper could be liable for the parking charge - thus they have forfeited the right to hold the hirer liable before the ink has even dried on their follow-up Notice to Hirer.

    The best option is to kill this off now. Submit an "appeal" via Smart's website as the vehicle's hirer taking care to give no clues as to who was driving.

    Something short and sweet will do the trick - like this.

    I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Smart Parking Ltd (“Smart”). I confirm that I am the hirer and keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally dispute this PCN.

    You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle's keeper and / or hirer. There are a number of reasons why Smart’s PCN did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 9, 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

    Within the timescales specified under the BPA Code of Practice please provide me with written confirmation that either a) you have cancelled this PCN or b) you still believe that you have a valid claim against me in which case you must provide me with a valid POPLA Code so that I may escalate my dispute to POPLA.

    Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving confirmation that you have cancelled this charge.
    In the event that Smart don't fold at the first stage, you can escalate to POPLA to get the PCN cancelled.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Nov 17, 11:36 PM
    • 51,687 Posts
    • 65,339 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:36 PM
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:36 PM
    I can't see from the POFA12 anything that would cause an error.
    Originally posted by brinders
    I find that astonishing. It is CLEARLY not a POFA PCN in wording (or attachments) whether you were hirer or keeper.

    Smart don't do POFA.

    is completely ignoring it an option?
    Only if you fancy getting demands for months/years and possibly a court claim, later on.

    Why would you do that, this is a cinch, one of the easiest ones to win and the templates are already written for you to copy. Posters here ALWAYS win at POPLA v Smart; you would be mad to ignore a slam-dunk opportunity to quash this now.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 23-11-2017 at 11:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • brinders
    • By brinders 29th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    brinders
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    • #8
    • 29th Nov 17, 2:54 PM
    Appreciate the points made here.

    Thanks Edna for the suggested text - that's what we've submitted, so we'll see what comes back.
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