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    • graffias
    • By graffias 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 24Thanks
    graffias
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin
    • #1
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin 22nd Nov 17 at 7:59 PM
    Is there ANY way to withdraw my whole defined contribution pension plan (from a company I used to work for many years back) - it is worth about £24,000 in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market) - and put the whole lot into Bitcoin? I am age 51 and virtually certain that Bitcoin will by end of 2019 be worth over £100,000 per coin. With the central bank printing presses running overtime as at no time in history, and them buying up stocks to inflate prices to a massive bubble again unlike any ever seen before - it has to be INSANITY to have £24,000 invested in the stock market for the next few years whilst Bitcoin is on the cusp of becoming a global monetary store of value and currency. By contrast the pensions bubble is going to completely explode.

    I don't want to lose out on £400,000GBP that this will be worth in 2019 - so is there any way to save this money - how do I get the money out of the pension scheme, where I know its going to be worth virtually nothing by the time I retire if I don't take action ?

    Any advice from pension experts much appreciated - thank you.
Page 3
    • molerat
    • By molerat 28th Nov 17, 9:40 AM
    • 17,484 Posts
    • 11,720 Thanks
    molerat
    Its a line up to a Ponzi Scheme introduction - nothing more nothing less.

    Sadly for the OP, he was not greeted with 'ooohh tell me more'...
    Originally posted by Credit-Crunched
    I see there are a lot of big players getting involved. When the time is right they will pull the plug, take their massive profits and all the mug punters like the op will be left with nothing.
    www.helpforheroes.org.uk/donations.html
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 28th Nov 17, 10:02 AM
    • 99 Posts
    • 132 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    I would like to raise awareness of this issue more widely, so that people can know what is happening with their money.
    Originally posted by graffias
    +1 OldMusicGuy.

    What issue?

    I know that my money isn't invested in Bitcoin for starters.

    If this £24k represented 1-5% of your total assets then this kind of risky punt would at least seem affordable. However, if that was the case then you wouldn't be trying to access pension funds - you would have sufficient liquid assets.

    What is preventing you from upping your mortgage and funding this one-way bet from a nice, low-interest loan? Your certainty of rich rewards is surely such that the loan would be repaid within two years. Or would you consider that a risk? How would that square with your certainty that Bitcoin carries zero risk?

    Is your beef about equity investments simply the result of fund management fees? If so, and as you are a self-professed bull, why not simply follow the SIPP route and invest directly in shares? The risk/reward ratio is too high for me but, hey, at least you won't be risking your shirt and your knickers.

    On reflection, maybe you will. Cancel that idea.

    Before I join the thread spectators I would strongly suggest that you consider the worst-case scenario with Bitcoin, What if you are wrong? What would be the outcome (other than a cold butt) if you are naked by the end of 2019?
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 28th Nov 17, 3:10 PM
    • 266 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    TBC15
    Bitcoin, investment Darwinism at its most ferocious. Yes or No?
    • redux
    • By redux 28th Nov 17, 3:28 PM
    • 17,649 Posts
    • 22,683 Thanks
    redux
    This time next year Rodney we'll be millionaires.
    • Intoodeep
    • By Intoodeep 28th Nov 17, 4:43 PM
    • 939 Posts
    • 1,345 Thanks
    Intoodeep
    This time next year Rodney we'll be millionaires.
    Originally posted by redux


    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 28th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
    • 266 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    TBC15
    This time next year Rodney we'll be millionaires.
    Originally posted by redux
    And if memory serves me correctly in the end they were, because he sold stuff, not imaginary stuff.
    • robpw2
    • By robpw2 28th Nov 17, 4:49 PM
    • 12,487 Posts
    • 26,112 Thanks
    robpw2
    would it not be more sensible to keep your pension where it is and invest some other money in bitcoin ..
    then if something does go wrong .. and you lost money on the bitcoin you would still have your pension ..


    Slimming world start 28/01/2012 starting weight 21st 2.5lb current weight 17st 9-total loss 3st 7.5lb
    Slimmer of the month February , March ,April
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 28th Nov 17, 6:55 PM
    • 99 Posts
    • 132 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    would it not be more sensible to keep your pension where it is and invest some other money in bitcoin ..
    then if something does go wrong .. and you lost money on the bitcoin you would still have your pension ..
    Originally posted by robpw2
    More sensible except I don't think that the OP has any other resources. .
    • ermine
    • By ermine 28th Nov 17, 11:33 PM
    • 624 Posts
    • 925 Thanks
    ermine
    More sensible except I don't think that the OP has any other resources. .
    Originally posted by DairyQueen
    That's so odd given their superlative intelligence and perspicacity in seeing the opportunities of bitcoin. Still, fortunately there's a way out for him. IG Index leveraged BTC trading, either spreadbetting, where the OP will earn all his moolah truly tax-free, or as CFDs where he has to pay CGT on his stupendous gains. Obviously given this is a dead cert he can choose either, just needs to allocate 20% more to CFDs to pay the tax.

    Margin trading on a dead cert is the way for impecunious fools to become rich even if they can't front the money. I commend it to the OP
    • jennyjj
    • By jennyjj 28th Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    • 226 Posts
    • 342 Thanks
    jennyjj
    Margin trading on a dead cert is the way for impecunious fools to become rich even if they can't front the money. I commend it to the OP
    Originally posted by ermine
    Yeah, but with the route I suggested, he could use his pension funds and keep within the tax shelter of a SIPP. What could go wrong? win win.

    To be fair, I do have a few grand of my own invested and doing ok in Bitcoin tracker within my SIPP, so I don't consider it TOO insane.
    • ermine
    • By ermine 29th Nov 17, 10:03 AM
    • 624 Posts
    • 925 Thanks
    ermine
    To be fair, I do have a few grand of my own invested and doing ok in Bitcoin tracker within my SIPP, so I don't consider it TOO insane.
    Originally posted by jennyjj
    Then you obviously started earlier than the OP Like any other 'investment' your likely return has an awful lot to do with the price you buy in at. Jan this year at $1k, perhaps. Now at BTC=$10k and clear investing neophytes yelling from the rooftops this is a dead cert, maybe not.

    I've seen this movie before. I was that sucker in the dotcom boom, I was that sucker buying a house in 1989. But hey, the OP is so sure, let him put his money where his gob is or STFU.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 29th Nov 17, 4:14 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    graffias
    Well you are a difficult audience but some of you seem to be catching on - so let's get to it.

    Firstly this thread is about how best our pension funds should be invested - specifically relating to Bitcoin. Whether we have a small pension pot or a large it makes no difference - we want the best performance for our fund. It seems some are asking how much money I have - I'm not sure where that fits into the discussion, or why anyone would be interested. I certainly don't ask others that question - its normally considered fairly gauche.

    And secondly with regards to this continual claim of 'bubble'. Think for a moment - have you ever seen a 'bubble' that every time you apply pressure to it, it just bounces back even stronger? For that is what Bitcoin is - a highly resilient rubber ball, that just deflects everything that life throws at it. Perhaps you and me could learn something from that.

    Since this thread was started 7 days ago Bitcoin has went up from £6100 to £8200, that's £300 per day. At this rate we will see a +£90K move by October of 2018 - so my original projection was indeed wrong, I am out by over a year.

    Over these past few months since I invested I have seen multiple crashes of 30-50%, but I never flinched because I totally believe in Bitcoin 100%, even if it goes to zero, even if it fails. I last bought at £5400 and it crashed to £4200 a couple of days later, then about a week later it was over £6000, now its £8200. I expect more major corrections to come, maybe even bigger. I did doubt myself at times, but one thing I learned observing how the real Bitcoiners work was how incredibly blaze they were when the price crashed - they just buy more - and when the next day it crashes even further they buy again - cool as cucumbers. I invest my money with smart level-headed people - but never with snobs.

    But we actually ain't seen NOTHING yet.

    We are witnessing financial history in the making as we emerge from a Financial Stone Age - the financial dinosaurs are heading to extinction - future generations will marvel at them, and wonder how anyone could have lived in such a barbaric age. As the 'Fed' makes announcements on Bitcoin, nobody's hardly even listening, nobody cares what they think, they just want to stop their cash being stolen to fund another money-spinning war in the Middle East or North Korea.

    But don't listen to me - I am just as much an idiot as the next person - but the difference with me is I know who to listen TO - and I know who is BS'ing me. And mainstream media is one gigantic sewage pipe of disinformation spinning a fantasy world all of its own making, whilst totally ignoring major real-world events that profoundly affect our lives.

    So a lot of people don't understand what Bitcoin is or why it has been put in place. You have to ask the basic question first - what actually IS money? It is either one of two things : (1) a physical object such as a bank note or a gold bar, or (2) a password or a pin code that gives you access to digital funds.

    Bitcoin is the second type - but it has a critical difference - that passphrase or pin code is not issued by any central authority - and anyone, anytime, and anywhere can create one of these pass codes (called a 'private key') completely at random, and for their own exclusive use. Literally you can take any piece of information - it can be a password, a sentence or a paragraph from a book you own, or a line or verse from a favorite song, it can be an entire book if you want - you run it through a fixed algorithm called SHA256 and it will produce for you a unique 'private key' - a string of 32 digits. When funds are transfered to that 'private key' via its partner 'public key' - the key that is publicly visible - it becomes part of the Bitcoin monetary system. Its like printing your own bank note. It becomes a monetary unit on the 'blockchain', an immutable ledger that can't be forged by anyone.

    The money, whether it is £10 or £10,000,000, can literally be stored inside your head, and no despotic government can take it from you, or even know you have it. You can travel freely with it anywhere, and you can send it to anyone whom you please - a campaigner for example cannot have their funds blocked because of the powerful people they are exposing.

    There are over 10,000 identical copies of the Bitcoin blockchain ledger distributed across the globe, all connected in a network - and even if ALL those 10,000 computers went down the blockchain record would remain intact until the computers came back online again. All you need is a connection to this network - however shambolic - to transact. Bitcoin can travel over the roughest of territories - transactions are light and fast and protected by iron-clad cryptography. Bitcoin can even be accessed from outer space, and Bitcoin has its own independent satellite system.

    Everything in the Bitcoin system runs automatically without human intervention - there are no humans in the system who can defraud it, or make decisions about who is allowed to do what. You are interacting with a machine, and you are fully responsible for your money - that is why they say 'be your own bank' - that is literally what you are. There is a bank vault literally inside your head. And no-one can access the machine or alter its workings other than through a very long, very detailed, very rigorous, and very publicly visible process called CONSENSUS. Not so much as a full stop can be altered without the meticulous scrutiny and cross-checking of hundreds of dedicated software experts. There is no more secure system that has ever been devised.

    Bitcoin was launched in 2009 straight after the 2008 crash, which is no coincidence. The very first Bitcoin transaction occurred on 2009-01-03 18:15:05 and included the following data : "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks". (You can actually see this transaction here :-
    https://blockchain.info/tx/4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2 127b7afdeda33b
    - it is in the very first block - block no 0)
    Bitcoin was specifically put in place to be an alternative monetary system following this bail out. Top computer scientists and economists are behind Bitcoin, whose identity has been concealed behind the pseudonym 'Satoshi Nakamoto'. Bitcoin could never accumulate value without the backing of these powerful people - this is a project from the very highest level. Meanwhile all the players are all fighting out the territories, trying to become powerful and rich, but ultimately the system has been designed so that NO-ONE can control it - only CONSENSUS can control it.

    To learn what actually happened during 2008 you have to read the writings and watch the interviews of James Rickards who was one of the top Wall St lawyers who negotiated the emergency banks bail-out to stem the bloodflow - he is quoted as saying we were only a few hours away from a complete global systemic collapse of the ENTIRE banking system. Rickards is a former CIA agent, CIA are responsible for the highest levels of finance which are all 'off-book' - a budget of $20-40 trillion estimated for secret military projects. Make absolutely no mistake - we are farm animals - and mainstream media is our fodder. Rickards says there is no money left, it is all fraudulent paper - just like the Mortgage Backed Securities of 2008. The stock market is all fraudulent worthless paper and that's where your pension fund is invested.

    According to Rickards the next financial collapse is a certainty and will be catastrophic. He advocates gold, but hates Bitcoin - so I disagree with him on the latter. I believe it is common for older generation people to not understand what Bitcoin actually is and to be suspicious.

    Your pension fund is invested in shares which you have a claim to - these have been built up over many years - conveniently, so no-one will find out until much later what they really own, just like with Bernie Madoff's long running ponzi scheme which ran for decades stretching back to the 70's. There will be 10-20 of you all laying claim to the same share. And the documents proving ownership will all have been destroyed. If you think 10-20 years from now you will have a nice pension - then you could be in for a rude awakening. To the financial crooks this is just like taking candy from a baby.

    The issue of the security of the cryptography Bitcoin uses has been raised - however one thing to bear in mind is this same crytographic system (called Elliptic Curve Cryptography) is used throughout the present financial and banking system - it is used for all electronic commerce across the globe - so if it was compromised we would have a lot more than just Bitcoin to worry about. All systems would grind to a halt. Not to mention nuclear weapon systems are secured by this same type of cryptography also.

    Bitcoin is now an established asset class as the Bloomberg graphic below shows though with only a small percentage of total assets invested. This is going to grow exponentially as the huge benefits of Bitcoin (and other cryptos) as a store of wealth become apparent. Benefits such as ease of storage and transfer, the impossibility of seizure or censureship, the limited supply of Bitcoins, and the massive explosion of innovation in Bitcoin services of all kinds all across the globe. We do everything via the internet nowadays - and Bitcoin is the native currency of the internet. When stocks crash people will be desperate for safe havens for their assets and will be running for the exits, and Bitcoin will be a very attractive asset class to them - gold is sound money but it is much less usable and convenient - and it can easily be confiscated, and taking it abroad is risky and subject to seizure by authorities for any reason they care to make up. Real estate is known to be in a bubble also - the current prices are unsustainable.

    So its up to you what you do. For me, I want a big portion of my pension fund in Bitcoin - I don't trust the finance industry, and 2008 just shows what its capable of. Its a hall of mirrors and nobody knows what's real and what's fake - only money that can't be faked has a future. Hence -

    Bitcoin - £1,000,000 per coin
    PHYSICAL Gold and Silver - always a long-term store of value
    Paper money - worthless

    Anyway hope somebody learned something a little bit - and there is not too much bitterness - yes I know some upstart comes along thinking he knows it all (even an old one like me) - I am a very opinionated fellow, but I do actually read and consider contrary arguments - and admit when I am wrong.

    Helpful YouTube channel :-
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCry6pZNehIejCzPQjfvAaZA/videos
    - lot of short clips of people commenting on Bitcoin in the news.

    Smart people I have listened to from whom I have learned a lot about Bitcoin :-
    Trace Mayer - legendary Bitcoin investor
    Tone Vays - former Wall St banker, gives regular Bitcoin reports on YT
    Simon Dixon - also former investment banker
    Mike Novogratz - former hedge fund manager, prominent Bitcoin advocate

    Last edited by graffias; 29-11-2017 at 5:21 PM.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • k6chris
    • By k6chris 29th Nov 17, 4:40 PM
    • 154 Posts
    • 236 Thanks
    k6chris
    Its a hall of mirrors and nobody knows what's real and what's fake - only money that can't be faked has a future. Hence -

    Bitcoin - £1,000,000 per coin
    PHYSICAL Gold and Silver - always a long-term store of value
    Paper money - worthless
    Originally posted by graffias
    Genuine question from me; why Bitcoin and not one of the other 1000+ Blockchain based currencies currently available? Is it a technical advantage, popularity (liquidity)??
    EatingSoup
    • stoozie1
    • By stoozie1 29th Nov 17, 5:15 PM
    • 399 Posts
    • 261 Thanks
    stoozie1
    It seems some are asking how much money I have - I'm not sure where that fits into the discussion, or why anyone would be interested. I certainly don't ask others that question - its normally considered fairly gauche.
    Originally posted by graffias
    I was the first to do so, so I'll respond.

    I don't ask others that question, UNLESS their initial question cannot be answered without knowing the answers.

    Many such 'gauche' questions could be prompted by an opening question, and not be gauche.

    Example: Asking a woman her age is gauche.

    Asking her how old she is if she asks whether she looks her age, is just necessary to answer the question.

    I asked your position at retirement because I was concerned about what you seemed about to do.

    I would have been concerned in any case, but:

    'I have 24k to spend on bitcoin, but other DB income in retirement of £50k and my NUMBER is £30k' = mild concern, but I think you'll be fine

    'I have 24k I wish to spend on Bitcoin and it is my only pension' = I am extremely troubled and prompted to post.

    I hope that explains the heart behind the question.
    • stoozie1
    • By stoozie1 29th Nov 17, 5:24 PM
    • 399 Posts
    • 261 Thanks
    stoozie1

    Originally posted by graffias
    If your wealth appeared to have the relative distribution your chart helpfully shows, I would have been a lot less concerned.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 29th Nov 17, 5:58 PM
    • 3,460 Posts
    • 5,303 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Genuine question from me; why Bitcoin and not one of the other 1000+ Blockchain based currencies currently available? Is it a technical advantage, popularity (liquidity)??
    Originally posted by k6chris
    As someone said on another Bitcoin thread, it's the same reason Snapchat is worth billions while the other equally good picture messaging services are worth buttons. They used the word Hype, but I prefer Momentum. Everyone's on Snapchat because everyone's on Snapchat.

    The problem with treating this as a secure store of value is that once upon a time everyone used to be on MySpace because everyone was on MySpace. Now it's Facebook. In ten years' time, who knows. On Tuesday it's unthinkable that people will stop using Facebook and on Wednesday only your nan is still on Facebook.

    Same with Bitcoin, today everyone's buying Bitcoin because everyone's buying Bitcoin, tomorrow - probably the same, the day after, who knows?

    It's old and busted already if you ask me, the smart money is in OneCoin.
    • george278
    • By george278 29th Nov 17, 6:39 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    george278
    I’m finding this a fascinating thread, and although I do not agree with the ops reasoning I do think it is good from time to time to critically question our investment strategies, especially when assessing and mitigating risk.

    However, one question for you graffias. I think that one of your main arguments is that you are expecting there to be a catastrophic global financial meltdown sometime in the not too distant future. If this is indeed the case, what will you be spending your bitcoin proceeds on? Such a fundamental collapse of the world’s financial systems will cause civil unrest and the breakdown of civil society. We may have to return to bartering and essential systems such as power and the internet might become unreliable and piecemeal. You may not be able to even access your store of bitcoins.

    No, if an Armageddon like you are predicting where to happen you would be better off investing your money in a secure ex-MOD bomb shelter with a copious amount of tinned food, fuel and access to a clean water supply. You also may want to consider how to defend yourself against the thousands of poor souls who haven’t prepared as well as you and will be desperate to share you saved.
    • k6chris
    • By k6chris 29th Nov 17, 6:54 PM
    • 154 Posts
    • 236 Thanks
    k6chris
    There's a 'buy on the dip' opportunity as I type...4 hours ago BTC was at $11,300 - now down below $10,200 - 10% in 4 hours, that's a hell of a ride!!

    https://www.etoro.com/markets/btc/chart
    EatingSoup
    • Theta101
    • By Theta101 29th Nov 17, 7:07 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Theta101
    graffias, that's a very good post (#52).

    But probably wasted on a pensions thread.
    I have the XBT Bitcoin and Ethereum Trackers in my HL SIPP. They were less than 5% of the SIPP value.

    Personally I think the Blockchain is the future Internet/Intranet.
    Bitcoin is just the first app of blockchain, like email was the first app of internet.
    Ethereum is where I think the real action is going to happen in the future.
    More and more big banks, companies and governments (Mark Carney also) are looking into blockchain and in a few years it will be mainstream.
    I'm a programmer looking to get into blockchain and think it's going to change how software development is done in the future.

    I don't like the volatility of Bitcoin, hopefully it will settle down after the CME Futures start trading next month.

    Good luck what ever you decide to do.
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 30th Nov 17, 11:52 AM
    • 2,085 Posts
    • 4,096 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    I am open to new investment views, and myself hold Etherium via my Kraken Wallet.

    My concern is that the Crypto Craze seems to attract quite a lot of the end of the world types. I see it as any other investment, only invest what you can afford to lose. I buy a lot of AIM penny stocks and have lost but overall made a lot.

    Also the crypto craze has seen a huge influx of ponzi type schemes that sell a portion of a currency, so you don't actually hold the unit in a wallet. These are dangerous and I see a lot of people losing a lot of money when the music stops on the ponzi schemes. If you want in, buy the actual currency direct.
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