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  • FIRST POST
    • ajm410
    • By ajm410 22nd Nov 17, 5:32 PM
    • 136Posts
    • 32Thanks
    ajm410
    Am I a first-time buyer or not?
    • #1
    • 22nd Nov 17, 5:32 PM
    Am I a first-time buyer or not? 22nd Nov 17 at 5:32 PM
    Hi all,

    Could anyone please help me understand whether I am classed as a first-time buyer or not? I'm in the process of buying a flat, and while my mortgage broker suggested I wouldn't be initially, I've called HMRC today who've suggested that may not, in fact, be the case.


    In December 2015, my late mother passed away and I was named as the executor of her estate. I acquired a grant of probate to manage and sell her estate and distribute the monies to the trustees, which included myself and my sister. Earlier this year, I sold her primary residence as part of the estate (the seller on the contract was "MY NAME as Executor for the late MY MOTHER'S NAME"), and split the proceeds between the two of us.

    At no point, however, was the property/mortgage transferred into my name, nor did I ever reside in it.

    Bearing the above into consideration, would I be considered a first-time buyer for the purposes of paying stamp duty land tax?



    Many thanks in advance!!
Page 1
    • kingstreet
    • By kingstreet 22nd Nov 17, 5:48 PM
    • 32,390 Posts
    • 17,392 Thanks
    kingstreet
    • #2
    • 22nd Nov 17, 5:48 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Nov 17, 5:48 PM
    Yes.

    You have never 'acquired' a property.
    I am a mortgage broker. You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a Mortgage Adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice. Please do not send PMs asking for one-to-one-advice, or representation.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 22nd Nov 17, 6:16 PM
    • 8,623 Posts
    • 5,098 Thanks
    teddysmum
    • #3
    • 22nd Nov 17, 6:16 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Nov 17, 6:16 PM
    Yes.

    You have never 'acquired' a property.
    Originally posted by kingstreet
    I'd say they have acquired (given been custody of) the house to sell on behalf of the estate, but they are a first time buyer, as they have not bought (owned) a home before.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 22nd Nov 17, 7:27 PM
    • 42,313 Posts
    • 49,157 Thanks
    G_M
    • #4
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:27 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:27 PM
    You'd need to read the HMRC manuals in detail, but my guess is you're a FTB for SDLT purposes.

    You have never purchased or owned a property.

    Start with this (I can't be bothered to read the whole lot!):

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/stamp-duty-land-tax-manual
    • Rich2808
    • By Rich2808 22nd Nov 17, 7:43 PM
    • 531 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    Rich2808
    • #5
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:43 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:43 PM
    This is a rather grey area i.e. if you inherited a property (or a share of one) anywhere in the world but have never 'purchased' a property are you eligible for the FTB stamp duty relief or not? The published regulations refer to purchasing or acquiring an interest in a dwelling in the UK (excluding Scotland) - does this include inheriting a property which was sold (and you got the proceeds from) but never lived in? The FTB eligibility wording while refering to purchasing if the property is in England, Wales and NI but acquiring an interest in for a property in Scotland and elsewhere - does acquiring an interest include an inheritance?

    The help to buy isa eligibility by contrast defines an eligible FTB as someone who has never held an interest in a residential dwelling which would exclude those who inherited all or a share of a residential property in the past but have never physically purchased or acquired one? Same applies to the lifetime isa re the early withdrawal before age 60.

    Could you therefore be eligible for the FTB stamp duty relief but not for the help to buy isa (or lifetime isa re the early withdrawal benefits for FTBs) bonus if you have inherited a property but never purchased (or acquired) one? Does any one know?


    Help to buy isa eligibility
    https://www.helptobuy.gov.uk/documents/2015/12/eligibility-of-ftbs.pdf

    Budget FTB relief guidance
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661612/8274_Relief_for_first_time_buyers.pdf


    (1) In this Schedule “first-time buyer” means an individual who—
    (a) has not previously been a purchaser in relation to a land
    transaction the main subject-matter of which was a major
    interest in a dwelling,
    (b) has not previously acquired an equivalent interest in a
    dwelling situated in a country or territory outside England,
    Wales and Northern Ireland,
    (c) has not previously been, or been one of the persons who was,
    “the person” for the purposes of section 71A or 73 in a case
    where the main subject-matter of the first transaction within
    the meaning of the section concerned was a major interest in
    a dwelling, and
    (d) would not have been such a person for those purposes in
    such a case if the provisions mentioned in paragraph (c) had
    been in force, and had had effect in the country or territory
    concerned at all material times (subject, where required, to
    appropriate modifications).
    (2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) and (d), ignore a lease
    which has less than 21 years to run at the beginning of the day after
    the date on which it is acquired.
    Last edited by Rich2808; 22-11-2017 at 8:03 PM.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 22nd Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • 6,999 Posts
    • 12,607 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    • #6
    • 22nd Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    Today's link is

    https://goo.gl/3R4u1m
    [Edit - direct link to govuk site written out in full was not working as MSE truncated it when it wrapped over one line's length]


    Per page 7 definition of a first time buyer you must not have previously acquired a major interest in a dwelling or an equivalent interest in land situated anywhere in the world. Couple of key points:

    1) That *includes* previous acquisitions by inheritance or gift.

    2) Relief is not denied by virtue of a previous acquisition as a trustee... *unless* the purchaser was also a beneficiary of the trust.

    If we examine OP's situation within the basic rules:

    Assets in a death estate are basically treated by HMRC like an interest in possession trust. If the assets produce an income (eg rent), the trustee might for day to day practical purposes have to pay income tax to HMRC before the assets are sold but then the individual legatees get assigned the income when the estate is finalised and pay their own tax on it at their own rates taking into account what already got paid on their behalf during the administration. Likewise if the property is not sold for some time and goes up in value before it's sold, that gain belongs to the eventual beneficiary who has to square up for any tax not already paid on his behalf by the trustee / executor.

    So, what has happened here:

    OP acquired as 'trustee', an interest in a property. Acquiring something by gift or inheritance (point 1 above) is still acquiring it. But, while handling the paperwork at that point, it was not "his" to keep for himself at that point, he was holding it for the beneficiary. Per point 2 above, relief isn't denied if you're only holding as trustee and you're not also the beneficiary.

    Obviously if you *are* also the beneficiary and they let you get away with saying it was only legally yours as trustee and the underlying beneficiary interest wasn't important, that would be a huge loophole. People would just go round acquiring things with themselves as both trustee and beneficiary and claim they were entitled to first time buyer status which would be a farce.

    So in OPs case was he also a beneficial owner of that piece of residential property he acquired as trustee/executor? Or was his interest *purely* as trustee and not a beneficiary / legatee of the residential property assets in the estate?

    We should be able to determine that by looking at how the estate was distributed - 'follow the cash'. OP said he sold the property and split the proceeds between him and sister who were the beneficiaries. The reason he split the cash that way is for one of two reasons. Either:

    A) he is a major beneficiary of the property specifically, or the residue of the estate generally (which includes property proceeds). In which case, he is the beneficiary of the house generally and if it takes a while to be sold he may have been able to walk off with more than probate value, keeping the extra - and it's just like he and his sister own the house while the executor is simply selling it for him for administrative convenience. In such a case, the property is basically his.

    B) the property is not his as beneficiary at all, he just has a fixed amount of cash bequeathed to him in the will, which could be settled in full out of another part of the estate without using any property proceeds whatsoever, and it is just sheer coincidence that shortly after the time the property sale went through, he still happened to be owed that money for his inheritance so paid it over to himself there and then even though the fixed entitlement was technically the proceeds of some other assets or cash.

    I would suggest that OP's scenario is more likely to be 'A'. He had a right to a substantial share of the house or the proceeds from it. So even though he was administering it in the capacity of a trustee for some beneficiary, be can't say "well relief shouldn't be denied to me, I only acquired it as trustee..." Because actually he acquired it as trustee, but also beneficially for *himself*. (And for his sister).

    If that is the case, I would infer it's not appropriate to try to claim "first time buyers relief". Let's be more specific and say "first time acquirers/ beneficial owners" relief which is what it is. The type of person the government is trying to help via a leg up to the property ladder is not a person who has inherited a house but then cashed it in rather than keeping it on, and is now taking the opportunity to get back into the market.

    They are trying to help people who are literally only now getting a beneficial interest in a property for the first time ever.

    The above is not to be construed as professional tax advice but makes sense to me, given the scenario and the HMRC rules which are a lot more detailed than the snappy soundbite "first time buyer". I don't think you can claim the SDLT saving of up to £5k on a £300k property, if your facts are how I assumed them.

    You don't have to decide if you meet some layman's definition of a first time buyer. You have to decide if you meet the govt's strictly defined terms and if you think you can, you will need to get a solicitor who reads them the same way as you so you can have their help defending your claim should HMRC choose to dig into your case after you build your plans around not paying the tax.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 22-11-2017 at 9:08 PM. Reason: Edit of direct link to pdf on Gov UK site to use goo-gl URL shortener
    • Rich2808
    • By Rich2808 22nd Nov 17, 8:51 PM
    • 531 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    Rich2808
    • #7
    • 22nd Nov 17, 8:51 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Nov 17, 8:51 PM
    Today's link is

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661728/8274_guidance_note_SDLT_relief_for_first_time_buye rs.pdf


    Per page 7 definition of a first time buyer you must not have previously acquired a major interest in a dwelling or an equivalent interest in land situated anywhere in the world. Couple of key points:

    1) That *includes* previous acquisitions by inheritance or gift.

    2) Relief is not denied by virtue of a previous acquisition as a trustee... *unless* the purchaser was also a beneficiary of the trust.

    If we examine OP's situation within the basic rules:

    Assets in a death estate are basically treated like an interest in possession trust. If the assets produce an income (eg rent), the trustee might for day to day practical purposes have to pay income tax to HMRC before the assets are sold but then the individual legatees get assigned the income when the estate is finalised and pay their own tax on it at their own rates taking into account what already got paid on their behalf during the administration. Likewise if the property is not sold for some time and goes up in value before it's sold, that gain belongs to the eventual beneficiary who has to square up for any tax not already paid on his behalf by the trustee / executor.

    So, what has happened here:

    OP acquired as 'trustee', an interest in a property. Acquiring something by gift or inheritance (point 1 above) is still acquiring it. But, while handling the paperwork at that point, it was not "his" to keep for himself at that point, he was holding it for the beneficiary. Per point 2 above, relief isn't denied if you're only holding as trustee and you're not also the beneficiary.

    Obviously if you *are* also the beneficiary and they let you get away with saying it was only legally yours as trustee and the underlying beneficiary interest wasn't important, that would be a huge loophole. People would just go round acquiring things with themselves as both trustee and beneficiary and claim they were entitled to first time buyer status which would be a farce.

    So in OPs case was he also a beneficial owner of that piece of residential property he acquired as trustee/executor? Or was his interest *purely* as trustee and not a beneficiary / legatee of the assets in the estate.

    We should be able to determine that by looking at how the estate was distributed - 'follow the cash'. OP said he sold the property and split the proceeds between him and sister who were the beneficiaries. The reason he split the cash that way is for one of two reasons. Either:

    A) he is a major beneficiary of the property specifically, or the residue of the estate generally (which includes property proceeds). In which case, he is the beneficiary of the house generally and if it takes a while to be sold he may have been able to walk off with more than probate value, keeping the extra - and it's just like he and his sister own the house while the executor is simply selling it for him for administrative convenience. In such a case, the property is basically his.

    B) the property is not his as beneficiary at all, he just has a fixed amount of cash bequeathed to him in the will, which could be settled in full out of another part of the estate without using any property proceeds whatsoever, and it is just sheer coincidence that shortly after the time the property sale went through, he still happened to be owed that money for his inheritance so paid it over to himself there and then even though the fixed entitlement was technically the proceeds of some other assets or cash.

    I would suggest that OP's scenario is more likely to be 'A'. He had a right to a substantial share of the house or the proceeds from it. So even though he was administering it in the capacity of a trustee for some beneficiary, be can't say "well relief shouldn't be denied to me, I only acquired it as trustee..." Because actually he acquired it as trustee, but also beneficially for *himself*. (And for his sister).

    If that is the case, I would infer it's not appropriate to try to claim "first time buyers relief". Let's be more specific and say "first time acquirers/ beneficial owners" relief which is what it is. The type of person the government is trying to help via a leg up to the property ladder is not a person who has inherited a house but then cashed it in rather than keeping it on, and is now taking the opportunity to get back into the market.

    They are trying to help people who are literally only now getting a beneficial interest in a property for the first time ever.

    The above is not to be construed as professional tax advice but makes sense to me, given the scenario and the HMRC rules which are a lot more detailed than the snappy soundbite "first time buyer". I don't think you can claim if your facts are how I assumed them.

    You don't have to decide if you meet some laymen's definition of a first time buyer. You have to decide if you meet the govt's strictly defined terms and if you think you can, you will need to get a solicitor who reads them the same way as you so you can have their help defending your claim should HMRC choose to dig into your case after you build your plans around not paying the tax.
    Originally posted by bowlhead99
    Thanks - the correct link to the guidance is here

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers-guidance-note

    The actual statutory regulations for approval by parliament are on a different page -
    and they refer to have 'purchased' a property before.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers

    Hence my confusion!

    “First-time buyer”
    6 (1) In this Schedule “first-time buyer” means an individual who—
    (a) has not previously been a purchaser in relation to a land
    transaction the main subject-matter of which was a major
    interest in a dwelling,

    Perhaps they should call it a relief for first time owners - not first time buyers!

    Because you can own a property via an inheritance but have never bought/purchased one!

    Also what is the reference date for inheriting a property e.g. is it the date probate comes through or when your name is added
    to the deeds with the Land registry or equivalent or when you get the proceeds of the sale from the executor.

    I have just inherited 50% of a property in Ireland - but probate won't come through for some time -
    so am I still a first time buyer if I buy a property in England now and do I qualify for the FTB relief (and when do I cease being one?!).

    I will never live in the property I part inherited - the executor/solicitor will just sell it and pay me the proceeds so I will never
    appear on any deeds or land registry records in the Irish republic.
    Last edited by Rich2808; 22-11-2017 at 9:06 PM.
    • Stockyscot
    • By Stockyscot 22nd Nov 17, 9:06 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Stockyscot
    • #8
    • 22nd Nov 17, 9:06 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Nov 17, 9:06 PM
    Hi, If I have a bought a property in the past (4yrs ago, been renting since) but now wish to start a joint mortgage application with my Fianc! who has never owned a house or mortgage are we considered first time buyers? Would we need to pay stamp duty? Thanks
    • Rich2808
    • By Rich2808 22nd Nov 17, 9:10 PM
    • 531 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    Rich2808
    • #9
    • 22nd Nov 17, 9:10 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Nov 17, 9:10 PM
    Hi, If I have a bought a property in the past (4yrs ago, been renting since) but now wish to start a joint mortgage application with my Fianc! who has never owned a house or mortgage are we considered first time buyers? Would we need to pay stamp duty? Thanks
    Originally posted by Stockyscot
    If she bought it solely in her name she could get the stamp duty relief - as she is an FTB. If you bought
    the property jointly you/she would not get the relief as you are not an FTB.

    'Page 5 of the guidance
    The third condition: The purchaser or purchasers are first time buyers intending to
    occupy the dwelling as a main residence
    Only purchasers who are individuals are entitled to claim relief. If there is a purchaser who
    is a company then no relief is available.
    All the purchasers must be first time buyers. See Chapter 3 for the meaning of first time
    buyer. If there are any purchasers who are not first time buyers then no relief is available
    .'

    She would be eligible, however, for the help to buy isa bonus as a first time buyer (or could use the lifetime isa incentive)
    if you bought jointly but not the first time buyer stamp duty relief
    if you bought jointly.

    This will cause a bit of confusion - when is an FTB not an FTB (i.e. if they are buying with someone else who isnt)?!!

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers-guidance-note
    Last edited by Rich2808; 22-11-2017 at 9:15 PM.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 22nd Nov 17, 9:41 PM
    • 6,999 Posts
    • 12,607 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    Thanks - the correct link to the guidance is here

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers-guidance-note

    The actual statutory regulations for approval by parliament are on a different page -
    and they refer to have 'purchased' a property before.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers

    Hence my confusion!
    Originally posted by Rich2808
    Wow, I don't blame you!

    The pdf detailed guidance note published today is the one I built my comments on. The direct link to pdf got truncated by mse's URL handler so I have added a short link instead - but is the same one from your guidance note landing page link.

    In the guidance they specifically refer to not having (alone or with others) previously acquired a major interest... And clarified that acquired can mean by gift.

    And in the draft statute with explanatory text, as you say - they mean (a) not previously been a purchaser in a land transaction, (b) not previously acquired an equivalent interest in a dwelling situated in a country outside England, Wales, NI.

    If we were to read the legal document and apply the guidance notes on top, two sources together - we might conclude:

    1) If you *purchase* a property in England Wales NI you are definitely not entitled to relief ;

    - that's per the draft law change
    Then

    2) If you *acquire* (and acquire can include gift, inheritance, but not just purely being trustee without also being beneficiary) an interest outside England Wales NI, you are also not entitled, to catch all the people who might have already bought or been given foreign property, have a family home abroad or in Scotland where SDLT rules are different.

    - that's per the draft law change with the overlaid guidance about what we mean by acquire in this context.

    Meaning, if OPs mother's estate was in England Wales NI, he only needs to follow (1), because (2) doesn't come into it because the property he would be talking about was not outside those three home countries so we don't even start to look at what "acquire" means.



    Perhaps.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 22-11-2017 at 9:53 PM.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 22nd Nov 17, 9:51 PM
    • 6,999 Posts
    • 12,607 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    She would be eligible, however, for the help to buy isa bonus as a first time buyer (or could use the lifetime isa incentive)
    if you bought jointly but not the first time buyer stamp duty relief if you bought jointly.

    This will cause a bit of confusion - when is an FTB not an FTB (i.e. if they are buying with someone else who isnt)?!!

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/stamp-duty-land-tax-relief-for-first-time-buyers-guidance-note
    Originally posted by Rich2808
    This is basically the government saying, we are not going to give you a free ride on a property transaction stamp duty where one of the buyers of that property isn't buying for the first time. We don't care in what proportions you are buying it, as that's going to be WAY too complicated to work out what proportion of stamp duty we can discount, especially when people can have really complex deeds of trust when co-buying and having deposits and mortgage payments in variable proportions etc. We are just going to say that the transaction doesn't qualify because one of the buyers had had property before.

    But if you as an *individual* have never owned property before, then you as an individual can get a bonus on your personal savings which you're putting into the property to help you buy a place - either using HTB ISA or L ISA (ISA being Individual Savings Account). But an individual who *has* been a property owner can't get a bonus boost on his Individual Savings Account because he is not the sort of person we think needs one.

    I don't think that's too complex for most people to follow, to be honest.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 22-11-2017 at 9:53 PM.
    • Rich2808
    • By Rich2808 22nd Nov 17, 9:54 PM
    • 531 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    Rich2808
    Wow, I don't blame you!

    The pdf detailed guidance note published today is the one I built my comments on. The direct link to pdf got truncated by mse's URL handler so I have added a short link instead - but is the same one from your guidance note landing page link.

    In the guidance they specifically refer to not having (alone or with others) previously acquired a major interest... And clarified that acquired can mean by gift.

    And in the draft statute with explanatory text, as you say - they mean (a) not previously been a purchaser in a land transaction, (b) not previously acquired an equivalent interest in a dwelling situated in a country outside England, Wales, NI.

    If we were to read the legal document and apply the guidance notes on top, two sources together - we might conclude:

    1) If you *purchase* a property in England Wales NI you are definitely not entitled to relief ;

    that's per the draft law change
    Then

    2) If you *acquire* (and acquire can include gift, inheritance, but not just purely being trustee without also being beneficiary) an interest outside England Wales NI, you are also not entitled, to catch all the people who might have already bought or been given foreign property, have a family home abroad or in Scotland where SDLT rules are different.

    that's per the draft law change with the overlaid guidance about what we mean by acquire in this context.

    Meaning, if OPs mother's estate was in England Wales NI, he only needs to follow (1), because (2) doesn't come into it because the property he would be talking about was not outside those three home countries so we don't even start to look at what "acquire" means.
    Originally posted by bowlhead99
    You see my confusion - seems I am inheriting on the wrong side of the Irish border!. And it looks like the regulations approving the plans in parliament may not be entirely consistent with the guidance? I assume the lawyers need to clarify this!

    You also see my point above - will this proposal cause couples to break up as single FTBs buying alone are eligible but married FTBs buying with a spouse who has bought before are ineligible. So much for Tory family values! Did no one think how that would look?!
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 23rd Nov 17, 7:28 AM
    • 1,300 Posts
    • 1,781 Thanks
    MobileSaver
    will this proposal cause couples to break up as single FTBs buying alone are eligible but married FTBs buying with a spouse who has bought before are ineligible. So much for Tory family values!
    Originally posted by Rich2808
    Huh?!?

    Single FTBs buying alone are eligible. Married FTBs buying alone are eligible.

    Un-married couples buying jointly where one is not FTB are not eligible. Married couples buying jointly where one is not FTB are not eligible.

    The policy is entirely consistent regardless of marriage status so I don't see why anyone would break up or what this has to do with Tory family values...
    Respect to 3 of the greatest actors of all time; amazing people who are totally believable as the characters they play & almost single-handedly make the shows they starred in:

    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones
    Daniel J. Travanti as Frank Furillo in Hill Street Blues
    Claire Danes as Carrie Mathison in Homeland
    • ajm410
    • By ajm410 24th Nov 17, 9:51 AM
    • 136 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    ajm410
    Thanks so much for all your answers.

    FYI... I contacted a solicitor, who said that, so long as, at the time of the estate being settled, I did not acquire or become the legal owner of the estate by way of a Transfer into my name for any part of the property, I am still a first time buyer.


    Wohoo!
    • Rich2808
    • By Rich2808 24th Nov 17, 11:19 AM
    • 531 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    Rich2808
    Thanks so much for all your answers.

    FYI... I contacted a solicitor, who said that, so long as, at the time of the estate being settled, I did not acquire or become the legal owner of the estate by way of a Transfer into my name for any part of the property, I am still a first time buyer.


    Wohoo!
    Originally posted by ajm410
    So according to your solicitor if you receive an inheritance in cash following the sale of a property by the executor - a property which you were left all or part of by the estate - you would still be eligible for the FTB stamp duty relief? In other words if all you received was the cash proceeds from the executor but your name was never put on the deeds or recorded as such at the land registry you remain a 'first time buyer'.

    Seems slightly odd - as if you didn't acquire an interest in the property via the inheritance you would never have received the cash proceeds from its sale?

    I am in this position - awaiting probate, not the executor, property to be sold immediately by the executor and half the proceeds then paid to me without my name on the deeds. I am still an FTB now - pending probate - but will I still be at the end for the purposes of the FTB stamp duty relief? The property I am inheriting is in Ireland - in the Republic - and subject to Irish CAT etc so it will be registered with the Irish revenue for tax purposes but not I assume with their land registry and i don't know if different rules apply there re deed transfers?

    Perhaps I should use your solicitor?!!
    Last edited by Rich2808; 24-11-2017 at 11:25 AM.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 24th Nov 17, 12:35 PM
    • 6,279 Posts
    • 6,061 Thanks
    davidmcn
    So according to your solicitor if you receive an inheritance in cash following the sale of a property by the executor - a property which you were left all or part of by the estate - you would still be eligible for the FTB stamp duty relief? In other words if all you received was the cash proceeds from the executor but your name was never put on the deeds or recorded as such at the land registry you remain a 'first time buyer'.

    Seems slightly odd - as if you didn't acquire an interest in the property via the inheritance you would never have received the cash proceeds from its sale?

    I am in this position - awaiting probate, not the executor, property to be sold immediately by the executor and half the proceeds then paid to me without my name on the deeds. I am still an FTB now - pending probate - but will I still be at the end for the purposes of the FTB stamp duty relief? The property I am inheriting is in Ireland - in the Republic - and subject to Irish CAT etc so it will be registered with the Irish revenue for tax purposes but not I assume with their land registry and i don't know if different rules apply there re deed transfers?

    Perhaps I should use your solicitor?!!
    Originally posted by Rich2808
    It's not all that complicated. If the property is never registered in your name as an individual then you're not an owner.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 24th Nov 17, 2:12 PM
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    G_M
    It's acually relatively rare for anyone to leave a named house to X in their will. Precisely because it can cause issues eg if there's no other money to pay debts like mortgage, inheritance tax etc. without selling that house.

    Confusion often arises because the word 'property' in the context of a will and inheritance tax includes more than just the house. It includes all assets (the yacht, helicopter, diamond ring etc)

    So X does not usually inherit the house under the will, he inherits perhaps everything (depending on wording), or perhaps the residue (ie everthing after the ring has gone to Y, and £5000 to a charity, etc).

    So if the house is sold by the Executers while dealing with the Estate (perhaps to pay Inheritance Tax?), then X never owned the house - even if he then receives cash equal in value (or more, or less).

    The house was owned by the deceased. And then by the deceased's Estate. And then by the new buyer to whom the Executers of the Estate sold the house.
    Last edited by G_M; 24-11-2017 at 2:15 PM.
    • Motivator
    • By Motivator 24th Nov 17, 8:12 PM
    • 18 Posts
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    Motivator
    [B] My father passed away in 2015 . Left my brother and me his estate which included a 50 percent share in a house . Due to the terms of the will , the third party had a two year grace before the house was sold . So my brother and myself where put on the land registry as part owners . Now the house has been sold and my wife and myself are in process of buying our first property . I now find that we can not get the discount due to this . How can this be right we paid tax on the inheritance . I did not own or live in the property any advice would be welcome.B]
    • G_M
    • By G_M 25th Nov 17, 10:26 AM
    • 42,313 Posts
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    G_M
    [B] My father passed away in 2015 . Left my brother and me his estate which included a 50 percent share in a house . Due to the terms of the will , the third party had a two year grace before the house was sold . So my brother and myself where put on the land registry as part owners . Now the house has been sold and my wife and myself are in process of buying our first property . I now find that we can not get the discount due to this . How can this be right we paid tax on the inheritance . I did not own or live in the property any advice would be welcome.B]
    Originally posted by Motivator
    Except that you did (joint) own the propety.

    Granted that ownership was subject to a restriction, as are many homes, and in this case the restriction was pretty significant, but none-the-less you owned a property through inheritance.

    The inheritance tax is a seperate issue entirely. and I won't even ask about Capital Gains Tax........

    Or.... never a 'beneficial owner'? Not something I'm very au fait with. Someone may know better.
    Last edited by G_M; 25-11-2017 at 10:40 AM. Reason: beneficial owner
    • Motivator
    • By Motivator 30th Nov 17, 5:03 PM
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    Motivator
    Inheritance.
    [B] My father passed away in 2015 . Left my brother and me his estate which included a 50 percent share in a house . Due to the terms of the will , the third party had a two year grace before the house was sold . So my brother and myself where put on the land registry as part owners . Now the house has been sold and my wife and myself are in process of buying our first property . I now find that we can not get the discount due to this . How can this be right we paid tax on the inheritance . I did not own or live in the property any advice would be welcome.B]
    Originally posted by Motivator




    Having checked the wording again https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661728/8274_guidance_note_SDLT_relief_for_first_time_buye rs.pdf It states a major interest in a property . What is classed as major.
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