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  • FIRST POST
    • bowb
    • By bowb 22nd Nov 17, 2:24 PM
    • 20Posts
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    bowb
    words on a will
    • #1
    • 22nd Nov 17, 2:24 PM
    words on a will 22nd Nov 17 at 2:24 PM
    Can anyone tell me what these words mean please.

    If the gift of any share in my residuary estate shall lapse or fail completely,
    then the lapse or failed share shall accrue to the others that have not lapsed or failed in the same proportions that such share bear to one another, subject to the same terms.
Page 1
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 22nd Nov 17, 3:13 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #2
    • 22nd Nov 17, 3:13 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Nov 17, 3:13 PM
    If the distribution is not equal then the failed share gets redistributed in the proportions of those left.

    Eg
    A 10%
    B 20%
    C 70%

    If B lapses that share gets shared 1/8 7/8.
    • bowb
    • By bowb 23rd Nov 17, 10:14 AM
    • 20 Posts
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    bowb
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 10:14 AM
    • #3
    • 23rd Nov 17, 10:14 AM
    Thankyou get more 4less, I assume that B (failed) because they predeceased the estate. I was asked by a friend what this all means and I said it might go to next of kin.So thankyou very much for this timely advised.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • #4
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    You have to be very careful just because they die does not mean their share lapses.

    There other rules that come into play and they also depend on wording which may be elsewhere in the will
    • bowb
    • By bowb 23rd Nov 17, 2:04 PM
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    bowb
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:04 PM
    • #5
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:04 PM
    I will expand. A gets 50% B £5K C £5k D £3k E £2k . I understand b c d e are gifts.Any monies left go to A. If B dies would their share go to c d e and a in proportion
    • rpc
    • By rpc 23rd Nov 17, 2:43 PM
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    rpc
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:43 PM
    • #6
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:43 PM
    If B is a descendent of the deceased, and has children themselves, S33(1) of the Wills Act means that B's inheritance would pass to B's children. (if there is no specific wording to the contrary)

    You can't taken one line of a will in isolation. There may be provisions elsewhere and it depends on the relationship of the beneficiary to the deceased.
    • MichelleUK
    • By MichelleUK 23rd Nov 17, 2:45 PM
    • 325 Posts
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    MichelleUK
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:45 PM
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 2:45 PM
    I will expand. A gets 50% B £5K C £5k D £3k E £2k . I understand b c d e are gifts.Any monies left go to A. If B dies would their share go to c d e and a in proportion
    Originally posted by bowb
    This does not make sense. The gifts are paid from the estate first, leaving the residual. A gets 50% of the residual, who gets the other 50%?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 23rd Nov 17, 4:27 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #8
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:27 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:27 PM
    I will expand. A gets 50% B £5K C £5k D £3k E £2k . I understand b c d e are gifts.Any monies left go to A. If B dies would their share go to c d e and a in proportion
    Originally posted by bowb
    That would be a very unusual residual clause.
    • bowb
    • By bowb 23rd Nov 17, 4:28 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    bowb
    • #9
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:28 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Nov 17, 4:28 PM
    Thankyou guys, will have a chat with my friend and have a good look at the will. And try to understand the wording line by line.I might not get back for a couple of days.
    • bowb
    • By bowb 29th Nov 17, 6:47 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    bowb
    Sorry for delay guys. The will reads thus....
    My residuary estate as follows As to 50% of my estate to the said A absolutely .

    As to the next £5k or remainder part of my residuary estate if less than 5k to B absolutely.

    The same wording for C D E with the appropriate amounts.

    As to the remainder of my residuary estate if any to A absolutely.
    Last edited by bowb; 29-11-2017 at 6:51 PM. Reason: two written twice
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 29th Nov 17, 8:09 PM
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    getmore4less
    That distribution makes more sense now.

    interpreting the clause in the first post against that distribution I don't know.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 29th Nov 17, 8:46 PM
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    bouicca21
    The first question to be answered is whether B's share really has lapsed.
    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/inheritance-tax-manual/ihtm12084

    It would make life easier if it hadn't. But if it has I'd think 50% of the legacy goes to A, and the remainder is divided 5:3:2 to C D and E.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 30th Nov 17, 4:30 AM
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    getmore4less
    The first question to be answered is whether B's share really has lapsed.
    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/inheritance-tax-manual/ihtm12084

    It would make life easier if it hadn't. But if it has I'd think 50% of the legacy goes to A, and the remainder is divided 5:3:2 to C D and E.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    this is why I think I don't know.

    A gets 50% B £5K C £5k D £3k E £2k A(a below) get residual of the residual.
    where C,C,D,E. are in order if not enough money rather than abated.

    if you take some estate values say

    start with £20k
    A £10k
    B £5k
    C £5k
    D £0k
    E £0k
    a £0k
    Normally if B's lapses D would get their £3k and E their £2k
    in your version is would go to A,C 2:1.

    What if it was A that lapsed do B&C get £10k each or do they all get their £5k,£5k,£3k,£2k and then the £5k left over get shared. 5:5:3:2

    if we go higher say £40k
    A £20k
    B £5k
    C £5k
    D £3k
    E £2k
    a £5k
    normally if B's lapse it goes to a.
    so in your version do we include a or not that would be two option for sharing out B's £5k
    20:5:3:2 or 25:5:3:2


    I think the first step is go to the drafting solicitor and see if they can shed light on what the testator was trying to do or if the wording is standard legal speak that has well defined meaning not obvious to lay persons.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 30th Nov 17, 8:14 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    this is why I think I don't know.

    A gets 50% B £5K C £5k D £3k E £2k A(a below) get residual of the residual.
    where C,C,D,E. are in order if not enough money rather than abated.

    if you take some estate values say

    start with £20k
    A £10k
    B £5k
    C £5k
    D £0k
    E £0k
    a £0k
    Normally if B's lapses D would get their £3k and E their £2k
    in your version is would go to A,C 2:1.

    What if it was A that lapsed do B&C get £10k each or do they all get their £5k,£5k,£3k,£2k and then the £5k left over get shared. 5:5:3:2

    if we go higher say £40k
    A £20k
    B £5k
    C £5k
    D £3k
    E £2k
    a £5k
    normally if B's lapse it goes to a.
    so in your version do we include a or not that would be two option for sharing out B's £5k
    20:5:3:2 or 25:5:3:2


    I think the first step is go to the drafting solicitor and see if they can shed light on what the testator was trying to do or if the wording is standard legal speak that has well defined meaning not obvious to lay persons.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    The wide number of views shows just why the OP needs to paid paid for legal advice.
    • bowb
    • By bowb 30th Nov 17, 3:30 PM
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    • 1 Thanks
    bowb
    I think the idea the will maker was trying to achieve was that A (wife). Will always be the main benefactor B+C (their children). D+E (gran children ). It looks simple at 30k every one is happy. Say it's 40k then A will have the 10 k . But if it is say £10k them mum and first born child would have 5k each.
    In reality I think wife will share estate with all the family.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 30th Nov 17, 3:33 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Whatever you may think the only way to find out is, as i said before, is to get paid for professional advice. Most of the replies so far have been less than convincing.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 30th Nov 17, 7:53 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    I think the idea the will maker was trying to achieve was that A (wife). Will always be the main benefactor B+C (their children). D+E (gran children ). It looks simple at 30k every one is happy. Say it's 40k then A will have the 10 k . But if it is say £10k them mum and first born child would have 5k each.
    In reality I think wife will share estate with all the family.
    Originally posted by bowb
    Was this a DIY job by any chance?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 30th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • 30,758 Posts
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    getmore4less
    I think the idea the will maker was trying to achieve was that A (wife). Will always be the main benefactor B+C (their children). D+E (gran children ). It looks simple at 30k every one is happy. Say it's 40k then A will have the 10 k . But if it is say £10k them mum and first born child would have 5k each.
    In reality I think wife will share estate with all the family.
    Originally posted by bowb
    That's the easy bit,the hard bit is what happens if one of the legacies lapses or fails which has very specific legal meanings.

    what were they trying to do with that clause?

    without the clause(any others that have not been mentioned) there are 2 classes of lapse/failure.

    One or more of BCDE, in that class A picks up the cash as the residual of the residual.

    in the case of A lapsing or failing any excess over the £15k would have fallen into intestacy.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 1st Dec 17, 12:12 AM
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    bouicca21
    The crucial question is whether B died in the testator's lifetime. If yes then the legacy lapses; and on rereading the HMRC link I think it goes into the residue.

    But if B were alive at the testator's death, then the legacy hasn't lapsed.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 1st Dec 17, 6:02 AM
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    getmore4less
    The crucial question is whether B died in the testator's lifetime. If yes then the legacy lapses; and on rereading the HMRC link I think it goes into the residue.

    But if B were alive at the testator's death, then the legacy hasn't lapsed.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    it has been clarified that B,C are children and D,E are grandchildren

    from your own previous link

    a gift in a Will to a child or remoter issue of the testator or testatrix (IHTM12001) will not lapse if the dead beneficiary leaves issue (children) who are alive at the testator’s death
    the gift does not lapse as B is a child of the testator unless they don't have children of their own.
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