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  • FIRST POST
    • BusyBee1904
    • By BusyBee1904 21st Nov 17, 12:15 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 14Thanks
    BusyBee1904
    Debt Tecovery
    • #1
    • 21st Nov 17, 12:15 PM
    Debt Tecovery 21st Nov 17 at 12:15 PM
    I received PCN from ncp. I wasn't driving so filled in back of form with name and address of driver and sent it back. Received letter asking for email address as driver lives in Germany. The very next day I received a Keeper Liability Notice saying (amongst more) that I hadn't complied with their request. I sent a letter saying I had complied and that I assumed I could disregard their letter. I heard nothing until I received a letter from TRACE Debt Recovery UK Ltd. I emailed them stating same I said here and received reply that proceedings have been put on hold until further response.

    Slightly panicking I called the Citizens Advice Bureau and was told quite firmly by the lady that i am liable for the fine and that i should pay asap to avoid further costs or court actions.

    Reading the threads on here I am now unsure what to do. Please help.
Page 2
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 28th Nov 17, 7:54 PM
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    beamerguy
    I have also today received an email from TRACE Debt Recovery. Unfortunately they're not saying anything apart from referring to the attachment which is the letter from NCP to me requesting an email address for the driver as they are unable to send letters outside the uk.
    Originally posted by BusyBee1904
    Together with DRP, Trace are just another bunch of
    timewasters and you ignore them, timewasters with
    100% no power .... just leeches trying to extort money

    IGNORE DRP AND TRACE and other idiot debt
    collectors who are clueless,

    "letter from NCP to me requesting an email address for the driver as they are unable to send letters outside the uk."

    Bunch of complete idiots, have they not heard of
    the postal system .... the Post Office actually do
    send post overseas ???

    No email address available due to data protection

    I hope you realise BusyBee1904 that you are dealing
    with complete idiots here

    As a tip here .... NCP know there is nothing they can
    do. they are phishing for an email address to find out
    who the ISP is, be it UK or Germany

    But due to protection, the data protection act, and scams,
    you are not a liberty to say
    Last edited by beamerguy; 28-11-2017 at 8:12 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • BusyBee1904
    • By BusyBee1904 28th Nov 17, 8:03 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    BusyBee1904
    thank you for your replies. I do realise that NCP, TRACE and CAB are idiots but unfortunately those idiots are grinding me down. I'm no pushover and I want to fight my corner so guys, I really really appreciate all your help. Thank you
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 28th Nov 17, 8:26 PM
    • 6,450 Posts
    • 8,256 Thanks
    beamerguy
    thank you for your replies. I do realise that NCP, TRACE and CAB are idiots but unfortunately those idiots are grinding me down. I'm no pushover and I want to fight my corner so guys, I really really appreciate all your help. Thank you
    Originally posted by BusyBee1904
    Well don't let them, debt collector letters, get a match,
    set fire to them, flush them, cat litter, budgie cage ...
    that's all they are worth
    Debt collectors involved in the parking scam can do ZERO

    As you say they are idiots, more like droids, pond life

    And, if you phone them, you will end up talking to probably
    an ex failed double glazing salesman or a crash for cash
    claims company. This is where the failures end up
    Last edited by beamerguy; 28-11-2017 at 8:33 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Nov 17, 8:26 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    I am advised that a name and full address was provided for the driver, however, as the person concerned is a resident of Dusseldorf, outside of the UK, the operator was unable to accept that as a servicable address. Schedule Four of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 requires a servicable address to be supplied in order to transfer liability. As none has been supplied, the liablity has reverted back to the Registered Keeper in accordance with the legislation.
    Sorry late coming to this .....

    Wrong, the PoFA does not require a ‘serviceable address’. The PoFA requires an ‘address for service’ and there is nothing wrong in providing a such address anywhere in the world - nothing in PoFA that says to the contrary. Nothing in PoFA requires a UK address. Different if you were saying ‘Mr M Mouse, Disneyland, Orlando, Florida’, or ‘Mr Man, The Moon, Space’, neither of which would be an ‘address for service’ nor a ‘serviceable address’.

    The BPA’s AOS Compliance Team member needs to read the Act much more carefully, not throw out fob-off lines, clearly informed by guesswork and supposition.

    So you have definitely fully complied with the Law, not someone’s misguided interpretation of it. This is what PoFA says:
    current address for service” means—
    (a)in the case of the keeper, an address which is either—
    (i) an address at which documents relating to civil proceedings could properly be served on the person concerned under Civil Procedure Rules; or
    (ii) the keeper’s registered address (if there is one); or
    (b) in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;
    Within the Act, the word ‘serviceable’ is never used.

    Oddly enough, the BPA Code of Practice uses precisely the same wording in Appendix C, para 2
    entitled to recover unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle; “current address for service” means: (a) in the case of the keeper, an address which is either: (i) an address at which documents relating to civil proceedings could properly be served on the person concerned under Civil Procedure Rules; or(ii) the keeper’s registered address (if there is one); or(b) in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;
    Again, other than used in a flow-chart label as shorthand, the word ‘serviceable’ is not used. Appendix E, page 40.

    It is not in the BPA’s gift to attempt to interpret the law by utilising a word with a much different meaning!

    So ..... what to do.

    Write this time to Steve Clark, who will understand the difference at the following email. Mark the email header ‘For the personal attention of Mr Clark’

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    And, importantly, copy this email and attach a copy of the previous BPA email to the DVLA and ask they get involved, because the BPA are misinterpreting the PoFA to the benefit of their member, with you, the keeper being disadvantaged by their quite appalling misrepresentation.

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 28-11-2017 at 8:56 PM. Reason: Forgot to add D Dunford’s email address
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 28th Nov 17, 9:29 PM
    • 733 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    Johnersh
    +1 Umkomaas. The wording of POFA is actually quite clear (and not what is represented by the claimant)

    "current address for service” means—
    (a)in the case of the keeper, an address which is either—
    (i)an address at which documents relating to civil proceedings could properly be served on the person concerned under Civil Procedure Rules; or
    (ii)the keeper’s registered address (if there is one); or
    (b)in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;


    Parliament could easily have added the words 'within England and wales' in that. They did not do so. Thus, I'd suggest that your obligations have been fully discharged - esp if that is the drivers primary residential address (although POFA doesn't use even that wording).
    • BusyBee1904
    • By BusyBee1904 7th Dec 17, 5:15 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    BusyBee1904
    Just to keep you updated, the reply I received from Mr Clark:

    "Thanks again for your e-mail.

    I have to confess that I have been following your case on MSE - some of the regular posters will be aware that while not contributing directly, I do take a keen interest in what is being said on the site.

    This is an interesting conundrum as I donít believe that Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) is sufficiently clear on this point. I donít expect there to be full agreement by the MSE followers in what I am about to say but I hope that my considerations are received in the spirit that they are made;

    ∑ The purpose of POFA was to establish a mechanism to overcome the situation in the pre-POFA period where a keeper could simply say that he/she was not the driver or that they did not know the driver, and parking operators were pretty much powerless to do anything about it. At the same time as the arrival of POFA, Government asked us to introduce an independent appeals service and POPLA was born. The purpose of this part of my note is to set some context and hopefully gain agreement that things are better in 2017 than they were back in 2012.

    ∑ There is nothing in POFA that says that an address given for a driver when you as keeper are seeking to transfer liability, has to be in the UK.

    ∑ Furthermore there is nothing in POFA that says that an address given under such circumstances canít be foreign - it does not overtly permit it though either.

    ∑ I think that we would all agree that a totally fictitious address like Disneyland or the Moon would be wholly inappropriate - one of the posters actually says this.

    ∑ For me the lack of clarity comes to the fore within the section of POFA that defines the current address for service - (b) in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;

    ∑ Of course in giving an address in Germany for the driver, you have provided an address at which the driver for the time being resides but is an address in Germany a location where the driver can conveniently be contacted?

    ∑ While I am sure that you and the posters on MSE will have no doubt that it is, I am not certain at all. Of course I agree that putting a stamp on an envelope and sending it to Germany is eminently achievable but with differing legislative frameworks in both countries, can effective contact be made, and consequently is the purpose of POFA in identifying the driver, being properly achieved ?- I donít know.

    ∑ Subsequently there is enough uncertainty for me to conclude that NCP are not in breach of our Code of Practice in taking the position that they have. Furthermore I would support the contention that perhaps such a case should be put before a Judge and to see what he concludes - until that happens we can all conjecture as much as we like.

    Now of course itís all very well for me to give my opinion and for others to cast their opinions on MSE, but you are the one with the actual ticket and I am guessing that you want to be able to resolve the matter as quickly as possible - or put another way, this is my job and the posters on MSE are helpfully providing you with advice on how to proceed but none of us have the worry of the ticket hanging over us.

    I propose to make contact with NCP and share the contents of this e-mail with them, to see how they wish to proceed. It is not within my powers to compel a member to a particular course action, unless I believe they have breached the Code but I am sure that the MSE people will tell you that I have a track record of getting things sorted.

    I hope that this is helpful and that I have answered your questions."
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Dec 17, 5:36 PM
    • 10,250 Posts
    • 9,381 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    I suggest that you contact Mr Clark and remind him of the situation relating to Hire companies.

    A UK based hire company who rents a car to a foreign driver can only give the address the hirer supplied and was verified with his driving licence.

    If that hirer lived in Germany or the USA or anywhere outside these shores, is he actually saying that the liability would fall back on the hire company?? I'd like to see that argument fly.

    He writes " The purpose of POFA was to establish a mechanism to overcome the situation in the pre-POFA period where a keeper could simply say that he/she was not the driver or that they did not know the driver, and parking operators were pretty much powerless to do anything about it.
    "

    Well, this is not the case here. You have named the driver and it's unfortunate they live abroad.

    You could just get round it by writing to the PPC saying that since you can't serve it to him in Germany, then use your address as the address for service and I will inform him, but you may only issue that in his name not mine. Any legal action would, therefore, be against the named driver, albeit using my address.

    If they do that, then your friend would simply notify them, after the NtK arrived at your address, of his "new" German address where all future correspondence should go.
    Last edited by Guys Dad; 07-12-2017 at 5:39 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 6:16 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,165 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    CPRs allow for an overseas address
    So no, it isn’t unclear. It states an address for service. It is convenient to contact someone in Germany, which is all that the act requires. It does not require that it be convenient to serve them papers that have a hope of succeeding.

    Double down on the hire point.

    There is a clear breach. It is a complete fabrication to state the address must be inside England and Wales.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 6:27 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,609 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Whatever else is said, you can always be sure that Steve Clark will be professional and courteous in his responses, and if he’s reading this, I’d like to thank him for his approachability and his way of dealing with things. The fact that I think he’s wrong does not cloud my view.

    Johnersh, a trained lawyer has given his comments on this in post #25, and I’m afraid they are in support of what I’ve said and in some contrast to the views expressed by Mr Clark.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 7th Dec 17, 6:34 PM
    • 2,157 Posts
    • 6,215 Thanks
    bargepole
    Perhaps a valid comparison could be made with the requirement to nominate the driver under s172 when a speeding NIP arrives.

    If the driver genuinely was your cousin visiting from Canada, and you supply his Canadian address, that might raise a few eyebrows at the Camera office, but if they checked it out and itís a real person and a real address, that satisfies the legal requirements.

    So if itís good enough for the Road Traffic Act 1988, it should be fine for POFA 2012.

    Taking Mr Clark's point about POFA originally being introduced so that keepers could be held liable if the PPC didn't know the name of the driver, in this case they do know the name of the driver, and have a valid address for service. Nowhere in Schedule 4 does it say that it must be a UK address, or one in England & Wales.

    The driver can be 'conveniently contacted' at the address in Germany, where their Bundespost works very well, I believe.

    And the Civil Procedure Rules allow for court claims to be served in another EU member state, so NCP can pursue that avenue if they wish.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 29. Lost 9.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 7:09 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,165 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Indeed. It says convenient to contact. Not convenient to serve a valid claim on.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Dec 17, 9:15 PM
    • 7,701 Posts
    • 7,973 Thanks
    pappa golf
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/british-parking-association-put-up.html
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 8th Dec 17, 9:48 AM
    • 733 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    Johnersh
    There are never definites, BUT:

    It would've been very easy to add the words "within the jurisdiction of E&W" when drafting, but they did not do so. This is for the obvious reason that (a) the driver may not reside within E&W, but also (b) that the transfer provisions are not punitive.

    They are there to prevent avoidance of tickets altogether (by ignoring correspondence). To impose a liability where none otherwise exists in law is in effect to create an automatic liability on the owner of the vehicle. Unlike most EU jurisdictions this country has never done that.
    • BusyBee1904
    • By BusyBee1904 8th Dec 17, 10:17 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    BusyBee1904
    The latest and most important update:

    "... While all the conjecture was going on, I have been in contact with a good contact at NCP and they have agreed to accept your transfer of liability, and will follow up with the nominated driver in Germany.

    I hope you agree that this is an appropriate resolution and I do thank you, for both bringing this matter to my attention and for allowing the theorists - myself and the all MSE posters - to debate your particular case.

    Kind regards

    Steve Clark
    Head of Business Operations
    British Parking Association ..."

    Thank you all for your help.
    I just wonder now if NCP is still in the timelimit to serve Notice to the driver
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 8th Dec 17, 10:25 AM
    • 7,701 Posts
    • 7,973 Thanks
    pappa golf
    The latest and most important update:

    "... While all the conjecture was going on, I have been in contact with a good contact at NCP and they have agreed to accept your transfer of liability, and will follow up with the nominated driver in Germany.

    I hope you agree that this is an appropriate resolution and I do thank you, for both bringing this matter to my attention and for allowing the theorists - myself and the all MSE posters - to debate your particular case.

    Kind regards

    Steve Clark
    Head of Business Operations
    British Parking Association ..."

    Thank you all for your help.
    I just wonder now if NCP is still in the timelimit to serve Notice to the driver
    Originally posted by BusyBee1904
    but WHY should NCP have a change of mind? after all Mr Clark has told them they are (or where) not breaking any rules or COP ?

    me thinks , your publication of Mr Clarks letter and the PP blog has caused embarrassment
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Dec 17, 10:32 AM
    • 1,740 Posts
    • 2,842 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Has Mr Clarke had legal advice? Because the OP here has, albeit anonymously on this forum. To me the irony is that BPA requires its members to be familiar with the law, inter alia, POFA.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 8th Dec 17, 11:05 AM
    • 6,450 Posts
    • 8,256 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Very embarrassing for Steve Clarke, not knowing the meaning
    of the BPA's CoP's ??

    The OP can now walk away from this

    Will NCP write to Germany ??? maybe but is the driver
    under any obligation to reply ?? cannot see why they should.

    What will they do then ???
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Dec 17, 11:14 AM
    • 1,136 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    The driver does not have to reply. For NCP to do more to the Keeper, they would have to somehow prove that no driver exists there, as opposed to just being able to assume thata lack of response is proof of anything.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 8th Dec 17, 11:14 AM
    • 7,701 Posts
    • 7,973 Thanks
    pappa golf
    Very embarrassing for Steve Clarke, not knowing the meaning
    of the BPA's CoP's ??

    The OP can now walk away from this

    Will NCP write to Germany ??? maybe but is the driver
    under any obligation to reply ?? cannot see why they should.

    What will they do then ???
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    cry ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 8th Dec 17, 11:54 AM
    • 2,157 Posts
    • 6,215 Thanks
    bargepole
    From Reuters:

    Breaking News: End to deadlock in EU negotiations.

    Following months of stalled negotiations, with the entrenched positions on both sides seeming intractable, a historic agreement has now been reached between Britain and the EU member states. Prime Minister Theresa May flew to Brussels this morning to meet with EU President Jean-Claude Juncker, and after a meeting made the following statement: ďWe have been trying to conclude a deal for some time now, and although the main sticking points widely reported in the media seemed to be the questions of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and the amount the UK is obliged to pay the EU when we leave, the real issue was the fact that the British Parking Association were advising their members not to recognise addresses in other EU member states as valid addresses for service of parking charge notices. I am delighted to say that, thanks to the intervention of Steve Clark, that issue is now resolved, and both sides can move forward to the next round of talks.Ē
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 29. Lost 9.
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