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  • FIRST POST
    • solanum55
    • By solanum55 19th Nov 17, 11:50 PM
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    solanum55
    Deprivation of assets query
    • #1
    • 19th Nov 17, 11:50 PM
    Deprivation of assets query 19th Nov 17 at 11:50 PM
    Hello,
    It looks like Mum will be going into sheltered accommodation and selling her house. She can afford the sheltered accommodation from her pension income and so is thinking of giving the money from her house sale to the grandchildren/great grandchildren to help them with housing costs.
    If after a year or 2 she goes downhill and needs full nursing care, will the authorities come looking for her house sale money? If so where will this leave the grandchildren who will have spent the money on house purchases?
    Thanks Steve
Page 1
    • lessonlearned
    • By lessonlearned 20th Nov 17, 12:51 AM
    • 10,221 Posts
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    lessonlearned
    • #2
    • 20th Nov 17, 12:51 AM
    • #2
    • 20th Nov 17, 12:51 AM
    The short answer is yes they may well do.

    There is no defined timescale for this kind of scenario. I have no idea “how far back” they would go.

    To my knowledge, unlike when someone has died and the 7 year rule applies, there is nothing in law to stipulate how long ago one would have needed to dispose of assets.

    However, my guess is one or two years wouldn’t be long enough.
    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 20th Nov 17, 12:53 AM
    • 5,791 Posts
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    p00hsticks
    • #3
    • 20th Nov 17, 12:53 AM
    • #3
    • 20th Nov 17, 12:53 AM
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/social-care-and-support-where-to-start/paying-for-care-support/deprivation-of-assets/
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 20th Nov 17, 9:18 PM
    • 4,111 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #4
    • 20th Nov 17, 9:18 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Nov 17, 9:18 PM
    She would be very foolish to give her major assets away. The 7 year rule applies to IHT not to DoA for which there is no time limit.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 20th Nov 17, 9:21 PM
    • 28,657 Posts
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    Mojisola
    • #5
    • 20th Nov 17, 9:21 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Nov 17, 9:21 PM
    If after a year or 2 she goes downhill and needs full nursing care, will the authorities come looking for her house sale money?

    If so where will this leave the grandchildren who will have spent the money on house purchases?
    Originally posted by solanum55
    The council can assess her as still having the money and refuse to pay for her care.

    How would the family manage her needs if this happens?
    • margaretclare
    • By margaretclare 21st Nov 17, 7:18 PM
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    margaretclare
    • #6
    • 21st Nov 17, 7:18 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Nov 17, 7:18 PM
    She would be extremely ill-advised to give away all her assets. She can't know what she may yet need for herself in time to come.

    I've thought of helping one of the GC, but helping is all it is. I wouldn't dream of denuding myself.
    r ic wisdom funde, r wear ic eald.
    Before I found wisdom, I became old.
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 23rd Nov 17, 12:59 PM
    • 31,951 Posts
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    Browntoa
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 12:59 PM
    • #7
    • 23rd Nov 17, 12:59 PM
    It's 100% deprivation of assets

    It will be very foolhardy to attempt to do it
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 23rd Nov 17, 7:28 PM
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    Silvertabby
    • #8
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:28 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Nov 17, 7:28 PM
    If you think there's any chance that your mum will need nursing home care in the future (only about 30% of elderly people actually do) then she will need this money to pay for her care.

    Otherwise, let her give her money away - with your assurance that you will take her into your own home to care for her if needs be.
    • MataNui
    • By MataNui 24th Nov 17, 8:28 AM
    • 884 Posts
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    MataNui
    • #9
    • 24th Nov 17, 8:28 AM
    • #9
    • 24th Nov 17, 8:28 AM
    It's 100% deprivation of assets

    It will be very foolhardy to attempt to do it
    Originally posted by Browntoa
    Well, its not 100% deprivation of capital. The local authority would need to prove that:
    1. She could reasonably see that she would be needing paid for care.
    2. Avoiding paying was the main motivation in giving away the money.

    Now i am 100% sure they would try it on if she was to need care at a later date and the fact she is currently going into sheltered accommodation may add weight to them arguing for point 1. But...going into sheltered accommodation could also be argued from the other side (that actually she is mitigating any future costs of care) and she can afford the current care package herself. Also if the money was indeed spent by the grandchildren to get onto the housing ladder that would be a strong argument against point 2.

    So, 100% sure the council would try it on (if she needs additional care in the next 5 to 10 years) but no where near 100% sure they would win any appeal. Seems like a bit more of an edge case to me.
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 24th Nov 17, 12:51 PM
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    Browntoa
    At her age it would be deprivation

    Disposal of a large asset at this point would not pass scrutiny of the courts , might have worked if it had been done many years ago.

    Councils regularly challenge these and win , she should be expecting to have provision for care within the next few years
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 24th Nov 17, 12:53 PM
    • 31,951 Posts
    • 37,686 Thanks
    Browntoa
    https://www.aprilking.co.uk/2017/01/30/deprivation-of-assets-guide/

    Legal opinion
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 24th Nov 17, 12:57 PM
    • 31,951 Posts
    • 37,686 Thanks
    Browntoa
    https://www.which.co.uk/elderly-care/financing-care/gifting-assets-and-property/343063-what-are-the-rules-for-gifting-assets
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 24th Nov 17, 1:37 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
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    badmemory
    Maybe someone should also ask her if she thinks that the LA care is actually what she wants. It may be fine in your area but in some it is pretty grotty. See the CQC recent report.

    I also think that as LAs are getting more & more strapped for cash they will have to be looking for any get-out clause they can find.

    Just to be a bit personal in this, I have savings set aside for if I do need care, if I don't that's fine I have a will, but I don't see why I should have to fund someone elses care just because they have given their money away. Even if it was over 7 years ago.
    • skintandfat
    • By skintandfat 26th Nov 17, 12:57 AM
    • 177 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    skintandfat
    There is nothing to stop her adding other family members as joint account holders on her current account


    To sum up- if nan has 100k in her account then the full amount is taken as an asset.
    If nan has 100k in a joint account with 3 others then the monies are divided 4 ways.
    It then is not a deprivation of an asset if a joint account holder withdraws money from an account in their name.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 26th Nov 17, 10:49 AM
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    Keep pedalling
    There is nothing to stop her adding other family members as joint account holders on her current account


    To sum up- if nan has 100k in her account then the full amount is taken as an asset.
    If nan has 100k in a joint account with 3 others then the monies are divided 4 ways.
    It then is not a deprivation of an asset if a joint account holder withdraws money from an account in their name.
    Originally posted by skintandfat
    Yes it would still be DoA, and she would also open her self up to having her money stolen by the joint account holders, so would be a stupid move.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 26th Nov 17, 10:50 AM
    • 30,857 Posts
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    getmore4less
    There is nothing to stop her adding other family members as joint account holders on her current account


    To sum up- if nan has 100k in her account then the full amount is taken as an asset.
    If nan has 100k in a joint account with 3 others then the monies are divided 4 ways.
    It then is not a deprivation of an asset if a joint account holder withdraws money from an account in their name.
    Originally posted by skintandfat
    At the point of adding someone to the account there is an implicit gift potentially with deprivation issues.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 26th Nov 17, 7:50 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
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    badmemory
    When my mother was self funded in a care home I never worried about the fact that about 50% were LA funded it was never a problem. What I did sometimes think of the ones who had no visitors was who had got their money. Some had been professional people who no longer seemed to have any resources at all & at the first signs of dementia no visitors either. Hopefully the LAs will be more proactive now as money is tighter. I have absolutely no objection to paying for the care of the elderly that need it, but do object to subsidising someone whose relatives have taken the money for themselves.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 30th Nov 17, 5:15 PM
    • 21,319 Posts
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    lisyloo
    Just for info my MIL is in a nursing home in Bristol (which I consider pretty average i.e. not London, but not poor either).
    The private fees at her nursing home are 825 and LA rate is 670 (just provided so you can see what it costs).
    I don't think Bristol is either expensive nor cheap.
    • SVFM
    • By SVFM 1st Dec 17, 3:02 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    SVFM
    Sheltered accommodation is drastically cheaper than care home costs. To give away the proceeds from her house sale, trying to relay on the LA if she even needs nursing care IMO amounts to DOA. However if the grandchildren etc. are prepare to look after her should she need caring for there probably wouldn't be any problem. I think it is sad when people who have assets give them away to rely on LA should they need care. Your mother could always loan the grandchildren money with a written agreement for them to pay it back if they didn't want to take care of her.
    A close relative has just passed away who spent 5 years self funded in a care home (a lot of money). It upset me seeing them there (I had ill health so couldn't look after them and no other relative was prepared to) however I visited weekly taking them out and the nice thing about them not depriving themselves of assets was that they could move care home when they wanted and to where they wanted, rather than the LA choosing the home for them. Care homes can be great when you originally choose one however staff can change and conditions alter. In the 5 years my relative moved 3 times each time for the better, if she had not self funded this could not have happened as the cost of the homes was above the LA rates.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 1st Dec 17, 9:56 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
    • 1,140 Thanks
    badmemory
    Care homes can be great when you originally choose one however staff can change and conditions alter. In the 5 years my relative moved 3 times each time for the better, if she had not self funded this could not have happened as the cost of the homes was above the LA rates.
    Originally posted by SVFM
    Totally agree with this, the home my mother was in the management changed & it went right downhill but my mother didn't want to change because she liked the girls who were looking after her, although some left because they didn't like some changes to the care. Fortunately the management soon changed again or we would have had to bite the bullet & change against her wishes. Definitely not something that we wanted to do.

    As family we like to think that we can deal with any care that arises, but when the only people left are 2 with bad backs already, how do they deal with someone who needs lifting from wheelchair to chair to toilet etc. Not occasionally when they are having a bad day, but every single time.

    So no don't allow her to deprive herself of her assets, she could very well need them. If she doesn't well why not encourage her to make a will, that would make sure that everything happens as she would want.
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