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  • FIRST POST
    • espritlibre87
    • By espritlibre87 12th Nov 17, 2:07 PM
    • 29Posts
    • 11Thanks
    espritlibre87
    TV Licence - will they get a warrant?
    • #1
    • 12th Nov 17, 2:07 PM
    TV Licence - will they get a warrant? 12th Nov 17 at 2:07 PM
    I don't have a TV licence - my partner and I only watch Netflix or DVDs. I have of course declared this to the licensing company.

    Today we made the mistake of answering our door (we live in a block of flats so assumed it was a neighbour) to a licensing inspector wanting to check out the property and asking whether we own a TV. I stopped him and said we have the right to refuse him entry. He agreed and said that they would then get a warrant and come back. I stupidly confirmed my surname when he asked "is it still ....?" and I'm kicking myself for it.

    I know the licensing company like to use threats to frighten people into buying a licence. Do I need to be concerned that they will genuinely execute this warrant? The reality is I don't need a licence, I don't watch TV illegally, and on that basis I should have "nothing to fear" but I have read enough stories of inspectors tricking people into 'confessing', or coming up with not-entirely-true statements to 'prove' the person needs a licence, that I am not happy with anyone coming to inspect my home trying to catch me out.

    On a side note, when we first moved into the property (a new build) there were 8 months worth of letters to "The Occupier" threatening investigation, stating that an investigation had now been opened, repeat until insane. It was absolutely ridiculous. Nobody was living in the property before us anyway, and they'd essentially duplicated the same letters over and over in increasingly threatening terms. So this partly makes me think they're full of hot air, but equally they have confirmed my name (I know, I'm an idiot for being caught out) and I'm worried that then gives them grounds to execute a warrant. At that point do I lose my rights? I've done nothing to give them reason to believe I'm watching TV illegally (refusing entry to my home should not be grounds for suspicion in my opinion, it's my home and I have the right to do so)
Page 4
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 24th Nov 17, 8:27 PM
    • 9,518 Posts
    • 9,106 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    So, a person without a TV licence is unable to perfectly legally listen to radio through there TV?
    Originally posted by Mr_Singleton
    You can listen to the Radio using your TV without a TV Licence. However, when asked for information under FOI about how to configure such a set-up to avoid prosecution, BBC-TVL refused to provide any.

    On that basis, I would always suggest not using a TV to listen to Freeview/Satellite Radio.

    Out of interest do you have any links for the install without evidence of reception? I’d be interested to know how long ago it was as I seem to remember a very famous? case suggesting quite the opposite.
    The only relatively famous TVL-related case was Rudd. It wasn't actually a TVL case, but was actually about pirate radio. However, it introduced a defence in law that an AV installation that would otherwise be unlawful, could be rendered lawful by the presentation to the Court of a legitimate lawful purpose for its existence. The onus of proof is on the defendant.

    Also doesn’t a TV have to be plugged in with arieal to get non-BBC catch-up services?
    No. Catch-up services are generally delivered via the Internet, and do not require an aerial connection. Sky/VM work somewhat differently, but they are not good candidates for being LLF anyway.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 24-11-2017 at 8:31 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • espritlibre87
    • By espritlibre87 28th Nov 17, 11:51 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    espritlibre87
    Wow, I wasn't expecting quite such a flurry of replies! Thank you to those who have provided sensible advice. As far as certain others who didn't quite manage to do so, I know we shouldn't feed the trolls but a brief response regardless:

    I am well aware of which activities require a licence, and which do not.
    Having conflicting views on what constitutes good entertainment is not a breach of the law, regardless of how much you may personally enjoy Strictly Come Dancing.
    There is no requirement for me to prove that I have not committed an offence, when there is no evidence to suggest I have committed any such offence in the first place. I shall continue to exercise my Right to Privacy. Furthermore, the Capita employee who appeared at my door was found to be trespassing on the property (nobody had granted him access to what is a private building). He also broke TVL's own code of conduct, twice, by threatening us with a warrant.
    Your suggestion that the majority of us are lying is frankly offensive. Particularly given the many, many cases of vulnerable individuals being duped into paying for a licence they do not need. In the brief period of time that I have been making enquiries, I have heard of (and in some cases seen via video) people being wrongly informed they require a licence:
    - for owning a TV
    - for owning a smart TV with apps that cannot be deleted (despite no proof that the apps had ever been accessed)
    - for owning an unplugged TV, that the Capita employees then plugged in, thereby turning the TV into a receiver
    - for owning an internet-enabled TV
    Whilst I would record any future encounter with Capita, I would also prefer not to have to endure this in the first place, hence the original post.

    Again, thank you to those who offered genuine advice.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 28th Nov 17, 8:53 PM
    • 9,518 Posts
    • 9,106 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Corrected.........


    The way I understood it, no one lived/stayed at my mums main home when she was in her holiday home. Hence no second licence was needed. She explained all this to the clown.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    That's true if the Holiday Home is a Static caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet. There's a form to register the Holiday Home.

    If the Holiday Home is a House, flat, bungalow or cottage then a second Licence is required, subject to the possibility of using another exemption.

    If the Holiday Home is a Boat, Touring Caravan or other vehicle then a second Licence is never required.

    http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/for-your-home/second-home-aud8
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 29th Nov 17, 8:30 PM
    • 736 Posts
    • 631 Thanks
    House Martin
    Wow, I wasn't expecting quite such a flurry of replies! Thank you to those who have provided sensible advice. As far as certain others who didn't quite manage to do so, I know we shouldn't feed the trolls but a brief response regardless:

    I am well aware of which activities require a licence, and which do not.
    Having conflicting views on what constitutes good entertainment is not a breach of the law, regardless of how much you may personally enjoy Strictly Come Dancing.
    There is no requirement for me to prove that I have not committed an offence, when there is no evidence to suggest I have committed any such offence in the first place. I shall continue to exercise my Right to Privacy. Furthermore, the Capita employee who appeared at my door was found to be trespassing on the property (nobody had granted him access to what is a private building). He also broke TVL's own code of conduct, twice, by threatening us with a warrant.
    Your suggestion that the majority of us are lying is frankly offensive. Particularly given the many, many cases of vulnerable individuals being duped into paying for a licence they do not need. In the brief period of time that I have been making enquiries, I have heard of (and in some cases seen via video) people being wrongly informed they require a licence:
    - for owning a TV
    - for owning a smart TV with apps that cannot be deleted (despite no proof that the apps had ever been accessed)
    - for owning an unplugged TV, that the Capita employees then plugged in, thereby turning the TV into a receiver
    - for owning an internet-enabled TV
    Whilst I would record any future encounter with Capita, I would also prefer not to have to endure this in the first place, hence the original post.

    Again, thank you to those who offered genuine advice.
    Originally posted by espritlibre87
    I find your answer very offensive to me. You are trying to call me a liar when I have been at my job for many years viewing the MAJORITY of occupiers who do not possess a TV licence viewing terrestrial scheduled TV which requires a licence. I find your attitude highly offensive to me
    Yes the majority I see in the course of my job are clearly liars.
    .We decided to leave Europe because the MAJORITY decided to leave, 51% to 49%. Do you understand the meaning of the word "majority "
    I have never mentioned words like "all ", or "everyone " Most people I do see in my job do not have the TV set on but the MAJORITY of the ones that do are watching normal ITV or BBC at the times
    By the way, do a little research about the laws of trespass before trying to accuse anyone of knocking on your door ( that is if you actually own the property ) and trespassing. There are over 200 separate bodies who not only have rights to knock on your door but to actually enter your property without your consent, and everyone who has lawful business with the public have rights to knock on your door, and that includes the postman, the milkman, and yes the gasman too, delivering hand delivered TV licence reminders and inspecting your utility meters
    This is good advice, I m not a "troll " which is an offensive term to me. it may avoid you getting into a slanging match in the future with any other Capita employees who come to see you. Just behave politely and wish them good day and close the door, that is all you have to do. They will not be taking out a warrant of access
    No one is breaking the laws of trespass for walking down a path or up a flight of stairs to a flat and attempting to speak to the occupier. They do not apply.So please do not start falsly accusing Capita employees of trespass.
    If you say you NEVER watch any live scheduled TV or any BBC on demand or catch up services, why are you not incandescent with rage at all the ones who get taken to court every year, over 200,000 a year (, just a small proportion of those who are getting away with it )
    You should be in a fury of rage and applauding Capita in their job who make the honest ones who comply seem to have an air of suspicion about themselves especially when they start to deny access to check equipment, which would only take a minute or two.
    I get plenty of people who are happy to admit me to check their properties for TV sets, aerial leads, Sky boxes etc, even though I rarely take up the offer
    Last edited by House Martin; 29-11-2017 at 8:37 PM.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 29th Nov 17, 10:07 PM
    • 9,518 Posts
    • 9,106 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    I find your answer very offensive to me. You are trying to call me a liar when I have been at my job for many years viewing the MAJORITY of occupiers who do not possess a TV licence viewing terrestrial scheduled TV which requires a licence. I find your attitude highly offensive to me
    Yes the majority I see in the course of my job are clearly liars.
    .We decided to leave Europe because the MAJORITY decided to leave, 51% to 49%. Do you understand the meaning of the word "majority "
    I have never mentioned words like "all ", or "everyone " Most people I do see in my job do not have the TV set on but the MAJORITY of the ones that do are watching normal ITV or BBC at the times
    Originally posted by House Martin
    You said this on the first page of this very thread (and you have said similar things many times before): "In my job I have hard evidence that 9 out 10 people who claim to be legally licence free lol are in fact lying".

    If you want to be able to later claim "offence", you need to be way more precise with your language than that.

    You also haven't answered my question about how you know that the people you visit have claimed to be legally Licence-free. It's a particularly pertinent question because AFAIK, BBC-TVL and Capita do not recognise the term.

    Also, what you have is not "hard evidence". It is circumstantial, at best.

    By the way, do a little research about the laws of trespass before trying to accuse anyone of knocking on your door ( that is if you actually own the property ) and trespassing.
    EspritLibre lives in a flat in a secure building. I'm not sure if s/he ever mentioned whether the TVL person's entry route to the building had been identified, but either way when the TVL person appeared at EL's door, he was there without following the normal protocol for that building (and most buildings with an entryphone system). I don't think it's unreasonable to use the term "trespassing" in that context, although whether the actual Civil Tort has been committed will depend on the detail. i.e. whether there is plausible deniability for him to claim that he didn't know that he was obliged to use the Entryphone, and wait to be invited up to the flat.

    There are over 200 separate bodies who not only have rights to knock on your door but to actually enter your property without your consent...
    Capita is not one of them, and neither is the BBC.

    No one is breaking the laws of trespass for walking down a path or up a flight of stairs to a flat and attempting to speak to the occupier. They do not apply.
    Pretty sure that's not true. Trespass can occur on any piece of private land in England and Wales under the right circumstances. Whether there is a plausible claim depends on the circumstances.

    So please do not start falsly accusing Capita employees of trespass.
    There are plenty of videos showing TVL/Capita staff trespassing - when TVL have been banned from the premises by prior instruction, and when TVL do not leave immediately when instructed.

    However, Trespass is just the thin end of the law-breaking wedge for BBC-TVL and Capita. Whilst IANAL, I have good reason to suspect breaches of HRA and PACE, and in the context of the G4S/MDS operation your own evidence suggests breach of DPA, and possibly RIPA.

    You should be in a fury of rage and applauding Capita in their job who make the honest ones who comply seem to have an air of suspicion about themselves especially when they start to deny access to check equipment, which would only take a minute or two.
    It's disappointing that you haven't realised yet that BBC-TVL and Capita are not the "good guys". That doesn't make Evaders the good guys either, before you assume that. BBC-TVL and Capita need to carry out their activities in ways that are 100% compatible with relevant law 100% of the time across 100% of their staff and also meet the requirements of running a public service in a civil society (like not trying to bluster, bully or deceive the Public). That is not happening at the moment, and until it does, people are right to criticise them and to treat them with extreme caution in their personal dealings with them.

    I think you'll find that that is the prevailing view of people who know what BBC-TVL and Capita do and how they do it.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 01-12-2017 at 4:18 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
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