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  • FIRST POST
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 10th Nov 17, 1:58 PM
    • 58Posts
    • 65Thanks
    RustyRascal
    Civil Enforcement Limited - Lying about dates
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 17, 1:58 PM
    Civil Enforcement Limited - Lying about dates 10th Nov 17 at 1:58 PM
    Good afternoon all,

    I have started fighting a case against CEL which feels to be in a good place, so I wanted to share something I found out this morning that could help put some nails in the coffins of the open cases of the unscrupulous bs-trds.

    Having read through a number of posts on this and other forums around, I have noticed there is a common theme whereby CEL are sending out bulk particulars of claim, poorly mail merged, and in a large number of cases, not bothering to file an N215 (certificate of claim) which advises the court that they have sent their PoC! (If you are unsure whether or not the court has received your N215, call them (03001231056) with your claim number and just ask the question!)

    To add insult to injury, they have the audacity to BACKDATE the Particulars of Claim documents (a lot of them were apparently sent on the 11th October!) so it implies to the court they stuck to the rules! (CPR 7.4)

    This has NOT gone unnoticed, and following my conversation with helpdesk manager Amanda, there are a few complaints that have already been raised with the Customer Insight Team who are going to start official talks with CEL which will no doubt help defendants with their open cases. What she has requested is that I send through my case for her attention and she will forward it on.

    If you have received a backdated PoC, still have your envelope, or can prove otherwise that the forms were received outside of the 14 days they are allowed then the court wants to hear from you so they can share this information with the Customer Insight Team who are building a file for CEL.

    Where we may require some assistance is in forming a statement to send to Amanda for her to forward on. I was hoping that someone here could give us all a bit of template text that could help deliver a nice, powerful punch?

    Thanks upfront,

    RR
    Last edited by RustyRascal; 10-11-2017 at 2:06 PM.
Page 4
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 21st Nov 17, 4:13 PM
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    Johnersh
    If one is not filed, the court have no copy of the particulars or confirmation that you were ever served. That is the primary purpose of it.
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 21st Nov 17, 4:25 PM
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    RustyRascal
    If one is not filed, the court have no copy of the particulars or confirmation that you were ever served. That is the primary purpose of it.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    OK, that makes sense. Thank you
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 22nd Nov 17, 12:11 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I'm not sure the court would really care in a small claim about no N215 - but perhaps they might take it more seriously where there is an allegation that they've served backdated PoC.


    It's far more serious to file an untruthful form than no form.
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 22nd Nov 17, 6:24 PM
    • 58 Posts
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    RustyRascal
    My Directions Quesrionnaire arrived this afternoon which i completed as per the step by step guide here - http://www.bmpa.eu/court_wizard/Directions_Questionnaire.html

    My plan was to send a letter of complaint about how CEL have abused the courts processes, but based on how the courts have "dealt with" complaints to date, is it really worth it?

    If so, would i include a copy of this to CEL (it tells me to serve them a copy)?

    Thanks

    RR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Nov 17, 9:22 PM
    • 15,886 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    but based on how the courts have "dealt with" complaints to date, is it really worth it?
    If there’s a handy copy and paste available from other’s complaints, then why not. Don’t forget, that as well as trying to win your own case there’s a much bigger picture here. The systematic abuse of court procedures and the misleading of defendants.

    While we help individuals with their own cases, most regulars are here for the ‘bigger picture’, so please do your bit to help our fight in this. The more we ‘win’, the better it will be for your (and our) fellow motorists.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 23rd Nov 17, 9:09 AM
    • 58 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    If there’s a handy copy and paste available from other’s complaints, then why not. Don’t forget, that as well as trying to win your own case there’s a much bigger picture here. The systematic abuse of court procedures and the misleading of defendants.

    While we help individuals with their own cases, most regulars are here for the ‘bigger picture’, so please do your bit to help our fight in this. The more we ‘win’, the better it will be for your (and our) fellow motorists.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I understand what you are saying, but the DQ goes to exactly the same place as the emails have been going. They have made it very clear that they will not be dealing with any form of complaint sent to them.

    I have already got a letter printed and ready to go, but who do i address it to?

    We already know that this won't make it in front of anyone who has the power to do anything and they are not interested in managing their own processes!

    Just want to understand what impact you think this will have before the nest stage, which I believe is witness statements, which DO go in front of a legally qualified individual!

    Don't want unconstructive feedback, so if my response gets your back up open a window before responding. I'm all for the greater good, and want to hit these guys where it will hurt, just want to understand what the potential impact of doing this at this stage will have.

    Thanks

    RR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Nov 17, 9:26 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    The impact is that, when this gets pushed further up the chain, there is a papertrail of complaints.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 11:46 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    It is worth it.


    When the DQs are received, MCOL sends the file to your local court. This is the first time a judge looks at the documents. (S)he then makes an order confirming the provisional small track allocation, and setting out a timetable for service of WSs/documents etc, payment of the hearing fee by the C, and the date/time of the final hearing.


    Because this is the first time an actual judge will see the papers, this is your next opportunity to invite the court to strike out the claim/disregard the further PoC.

    I made some suggestions on starnold's CEL thread about what to raise in this letter and the court's powers.



    I think it's important to always quote the rules. Judges don't know the rules off by heart and so they are more likely to make an order if you make it easy for them and demonstrate that they it's within their powers by quoting the rule(s).

    So I would write again, but expand the letter a bit.



    Have a go and I'll have a look at it. I've done various posts on yours and 777 and starnold's thread suggesting what might go in the DQ letter.



    I'd also ask that when the court makes directions (if the matter is allowed to proceed) it orders that WSs are to be served sequentially rather than exchanged (the latter is the usual order), because as things stand you do not actually know how the C is going to make out its case, because it has failed to adequately explain that in its PoC or its LBC, and you are in difficulty in filing evidence until you actually understand how the case is being made out against you. Bang on a bit about how this is the very purpose of the PD - Pre-Action Conduct and the new debt Protocol, which the Claimant has ignored, but from which it is not immune. You could give examples of the sorts of documents/information you should have been provided with pre-action - eg the landowner contract under which they assert authority to operate, a copy of the full terms set out in the signage, a map showing where the signs were located etc.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 1:27 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73455252#post73455252


    Interesting development on the above thread. Based on that, I'd advise that once the PoC are late, phone the court to complain rather than writing in. Only write in once the PoC have been received or if the court gives wrong advice about time limits/doesn't care. And if the PoC aren't late it's worth complaining too.


    In many cases MCOL is ignoring the complaint, so my advice is to repeat it at DQ stage, because this is the first time a judge will see it (it's transferred to your local court after DQs are filed).


    ixworth has also posted on another CEL thread a draft letter to send with the DQ, which I've commented on that's worth a look.
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73455223#post73455223


    I'm not trying to hijack your thread Rusty. I'm mentioning the developments here because they are relevant to you, and also because a lot of people have been advised to keep an eye on this thread and it's a useful resource, and linking these other ones in saves us having to repeat ourselves about the same issues.
    • SLC80
    • By SLC80 23rd Nov 17, 9:57 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    SLC80
    Just as a heads up...

    The email address that Amanda gave me will send back the following bounceback;

    This email account is no longer in use and is unmonitored. Your message has not been forwarded.

    But folk shouldn't be alarmed by this!

    Having requested confirmation of receipt from Amanda, she responded within 20 mins to confirm she had received and forwarded the message and its contents on!

    Get everyone to CC themselves and request confirmation of receipt and go from there.
    Update: Received the below email after receiving above in red.

    Good Morning

    Please do NOT use this email address for court correspondence/documents. It is not manned daily. Please forward your email to the correct email address: ccbc@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

    Regards

    CCBC/MCOL/TEC/CAPS Helpdesk Manager
    CCBC Northampton


    RR, did you also get this 2nd auto response? Should I assume it has gone to Amanda or her team. Tried getting in touch to find out, no luck with CCBC today will be trying again.
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 24th Nov 17, 7:49 AM
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    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    Update: Received the below email after receiving above in red.

    Good Morning

    Please do NOT use this email address for court correspondence/documents. It is not manned daily. Please forward your email to the correct email address: ccbc@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

    Regards

    CCBC/MCOL/TEC/CAPS Helpdesk Manager
    CCBC Northampton


    RR, did you also get this 2nd auto response? Should I assume it has gone to Amanda or her team. Tried getting in touch to find out, no luck with CCBC today will be trying again.
    Originally posted by SLC80
    Hi SLC80,

    Yep, I got the exact same.

    I will just keep it as evidence that you raised the complaint, also as per LOC's instruction, send a formal complaint back to the DJ with your DQ when it arrives.

    RR
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 24th Nov 17, 9:39 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    ixworth has some good letters on his thread, worth keeping an eye on what he's doing too.
    It's hard work keeping up with all of this!
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 24th Nov 17, 9:51 AM
    • 58 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    ixworth has some good letters on his thread, worth keeping an eye on what he's doing too.
    It's hard work keeping up with all of this!
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    I don't think it will slow down either! They have set out so many of these things...
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 24th Nov 17, 11:13 AM
    • 1,754 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    oops, keep up me, I meant Berribear
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73459520#post73459520
    • logician
    • By logician 24th Nov 17, 11:46 AM
    • 90 Posts
    • 41 Thanks
    logician
    I understand what you are saying, but the DQ goes to exactly the same place as the emails have been going. They have made it very clear that they will not be dealing with any form of complaint sent to them.

    I have already got a letter printed and ready to go, but who do i address it to?
    Originally posted by RustyRascal
    DQ should be emailed to the court using email

    ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

    put the claim number and state this is "Defendant's completed N180 form" in the subject field

    If you scan any covering letter with the N180 form in a single PDF it will get there.... !


    However, when this is allocated to track - it would be prudent to write to the relevant court - marking for the attention the the court manager to put this in front of any judge

    Good luck !

    I am not sure how DJ's will view these "complaints" and whilst others have stated it is not in the Defendant's gift to accept the late PoC's, conversely it could be argued it is not in D's gift to refuse these..

    Given the court's general management powers under CPR 3.10 and the fact when an acknowledgement of service is made - it is specified particularly that this gives 28 days from service of the claim Or additional POCs if served separately to file a defence.

    Notwithstanding of course that the late particulars of claim and the fact that these were typically dated 11.10.17 should be included in any defence and brought to the judge's attention as an example of unreasonable conduct by the Claimant
    Last edited by logician; 24-11-2017 at 11:49 AM.
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 29th Nov 17, 9:26 AM
    • 58 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    DQ should be emailed to the court using email

    ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

    put the claim number and state this is "Defendant's completed N180 form" in the subject field

    If you scan any covering letter with the N180 form in a single PDF it will get there.... !


    However, when this is allocated to track - it would be prudent to write to the relevant court - marking for the attention the the court manager to put this in front of any judge

    Good luck !

    I am not sure how DJ's will view these "complaints" and whilst others have stated it is not in the Defendant's gift to accept the late PoC's, conversely it could be argued it is not in D's gift to refuse these..

    Given the court's general management powers under CPR 3.10 and the fact when an acknowledgement of service is made - it is specified particularly that this gives 28 days from service of the claim Or additional POCs if served separately to file a defence.

    Notwithstanding of course that the late particulars of claim and the fact that these were typically dated 11.10.17 should be included in any defence and brought to the judge's attention as an example of unreasonable conduct by the Claimant
    Originally posted by logician
    Morning logican,

    Thanks for your response, really useful! I have written my cover letter, scanned it all into 1 PDF and ready to email over to CCBC!

    I need to also serve a copy to CEL, so would you advise doing this in paper form, or will copying them in to the email to the courtl suffice?

    Thanks

    RR
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 29th Nov 17, 11:00 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    Do they accept service via email?
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 29th Nov 17, 11:31 AM
    • 58 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    Do they accept service via email?
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    I understand from logician that they do, but not knowing the process, I can only assume. I will give them a call this afternoon and confirm 100%!

    Thanks

    RR
    • RustyRascal
    • By RustyRascal 29th Nov 17, 11:47 AM
    • 58 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    RustyRascal
    My plan is to email CEL via copying them into the courts email, but also send a paper copy with proof of sending via the post office. Belt and braces...

    Service of documents by email is becoming more common. The rules allow it under CPR 6.20(d), which refers to some additional rules in the attached Practice Direction (PD6A 4.1). You can only serve by email if the other party has agreed to it (6PD 4.1(1)(a)) and must you check in advance whether there are any limitations on the ability to receive the documents such as restrictions on the size of attachments that can be received or the format of the documents being sent (6PD 4.2). Putting your email on a defence or other court document could be considered agreement to being served by email.

    If a document is served by email, there is no need to send a paper copy as well (6PD 4.3). It is for the other party to have to arrange to print the documents off!

    If service is made by email, the documents are technically served that same business day, if the email is sent before 4.30pm. If sent after 4.30pm, they are deemed served the following business day (CPR 6.26).

    If you are going to serve by email make sure you take a copy of the email sent with you to trial, in case the other side claims it was never received.
    (This was lifted from https://www.smallclaimscourtgenie.co.uk/service-of-documents-before-trial/)
    • ruffneck247
    • By ruffneck247 29th Nov 17, 1:13 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    ruffneck247
    I don't think paper copies are necessary. I am just about to send my DQ's and letter of complaint scanned into a single document. Hopefully as above, the DJ will look at the letter of complaint as it was chucked back at me by ccbc staff.
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